Parents Behaving Badly

56 opinions for Utah Parents Charged with Murder for Co-Sleeping with their Infant

• burnt_crawfish
  Feb 17, 2008 at 6:51 am

  What were these people on that made them sleep so hard? My kids can sleep across the house and the slightest sound will wake me up. That’s the first thing I’d question is what the eff were they taking?

• amyislu
  Feb 17, 2008 at 7:45 am

  I am an attachment parent. I have co-slept with all 3 of my children. There are ways to SAFELY co-sleep, including a co-sleeper bed, not placing the baby in-between parents. There are plenty of articles online, and in books that explain how to safely co-sleep. Co-sleeping is beneficial, especially if you breastfeed. You just have to do it RIGHT.

  These people were not the norm in attachment parenting, so lumping them in with those of us who are RESPONSIBLE attachment-based parents is neither appreciated, nor correct.

• fourkidzmom
  Feb 17, 2008 at 11:24 am

  ITA. I’ve co-slept with all our children (with the exception of one). I don’t think it is fair to color all co-sleepers with the same brush.

• fourkidzmom
  Feb 17, 2008 at 11:33 am

  I also have to wonder if there isn’t more going on here. The fact that they lost more than one child in the past few years is more suspicious to me than the manner in which they died.

• Amy
  Feb 17, 2008 at 11:34 am

  Lots of grandmas and great grandmas believe that sleeping-on-their-backs/SIDS advice is a bunch of malarchy because THEIR kids didn’t die. And babies do generally sleep better on their tummies. I think back sleeping is still considered new and controversial. It takes time for newfangled ideas to take hold, even if they’re lifesaving.

  I seem to recall a propensity for SIDS to be genetic, sibs dying of it sometimes.

  So much of this site has to do with pure ignorance. I have to say, I feel for these parents. Sharing a bed with your child is a decision made out of love and a desire to provide the highest level of care. I’d like to hear what actions, if any, they took to make this baby safer than the last. A few babies die every year from smothering in bed. Of course, babies die sleeping alone from things like asphyxiating on their own vomit, which, by the way, back sleeping is bad for.

  For heavy sleepers, co-sleeping seems like a good option because the baby is more likely to wake you. It’s just a matter of keeping the baby safe from crushing, smothering or being pushed out of bed.

  Good parenting is such a subtle art. Mistakes can be deadly.

  To co-sleepers: my strongest advice is to teach your wee ones to put themselves to sleep. DO NOT always cuddle them to sleep. Do that whole routine where you gradually reduce your presence at bedtime. I’ll tell you why. My college-age daughter still wants to sleep with me all the time. Endearing on some levels, yes, but not with a deeper look.

  It took forever to wean her off our bed, and it was not a happy process. Took years and years. She had sleep troubles as a teen. She has sleep troubles now. She always needs a boyfriend to sleep with her. Without a boyfriend, she sometimes enlists friends. Safe, relaxing sleep is, to her, next to another body. It is a real handicap to her.

  I’m very proud of the parenting job I did. She’s a fantastic, happy, healthy person except for her sleep problems. But I should have let her teach herself to fall and stay asleep, put the effort into the process of teaching her to be alone happily. Co-sleeping was so easy and comforting and pleasurable (most of the time), I let myself off easy. They need to know you’re always there for them but also that they can be alone and happy.

  I’ve come to believe I was selfish in having her sleep with me until she was about 5. It was just so easy and nice. Then I tried to slowly wean her from our bed with great diligence and care. Her patterns of falling and staying asleep were already set. We worked on them for the next 15 years. We’re still working on them, to little avail.

  Teach your babies they can sleep alone. Read about the right time and all. It really is something they deserve.

• Hellcat
  Feb 17, 2008 at 7:42 pm

  My boy slept on his tummy. He would not sleep on his back. I tried, but whatever. They tell you not to let a drunk person sleep on their back in case they throw up. Babies puke- how is this not a threat to them? It didn’t seem like a big deal how he slept as long as he slept.
  The problem with co-sleeping is that your child can’t sleep with you forever, and the longer they do the harder the adjustment to a bed is. They become dependent on you for sleep, as well. What if you wanted a night out? Do you think a sitter wants to sleep with your baby or listen to them scream all night?
  I know a girl who sleeps in a couch with her 18 month old. She’s due to have another baby in 2 months. I shutter to imagine one overweight women and two infants sleeping on a couch. And what a WHINY, CLINGY infant he is!

• Hellcat
  Feb 17, 2008 at 7:46 pm

  I meant womAn, and.. whichever other mistakes I made. I must start proofreading.

• Amy
  Feb 17, 2008 at 8:14 pm

  To be clear, this baby died because he was sleeping on his tummy. The coroner felt the co-sleeping caused the baby to be on his tummy, which then caused his death.

  Lots of babies won’t sleep on their backs. It triggers a startle reflex, flinging their arms and legs wide, waking them frequently.

  An argument for co-sleeping is that it can reduce SIDS when a variety of factors (no fluffy covers, no waterbeds, no drugs, non-obese parents…) are addressed. (Paediatric Respiratory Review, 2005)

  Since studies show co-sleeping can reduce SIDS, and this couple’s first baby died of SIDS, the parents were wise to co-sleep providing they took every advised precaution. if there was no negligence and diligent precautions were taken, there is a tragedy but no crime.

  I started sleeping with my baby precisely to keep her on her back. It worked extraordinarily well. Plus, we were both very well rested, a big plus in the quality of care department. She was so happy, she rarely cried. Still, I overlooked her need for experience with solitude, denying her discomfort and the ability to comfort herself.

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 17, 2008 at 8:44 pm

  I agree with fourkidzmom. I have slept with my son since he came home from the hospital but I am a very light sleeper. A lot of people think that’s not a good idea but he almost died when he was born and I just felt better knowing that I can keep a constant eye on him, making sure he is breathing, making sure that when he kicks the blankets off, I put them back. I watch him always. Now he’s seven months old and doing much better. He reaches out several times a night to make sure I am there. It’s comfort to him so I don’t really care what the experts say. He’s a happier baby and I am a damn good mom. I think it should be left up to the parent and if you are a heavy sleeper, it’s not a good idea.

  It just sounds fishy to me that they have lost one child before. Something isn’t right there.

• itsmecathy
  Feb 18, 2008 at 3:17 am

  I don’t think this is a co-sleeping issue at all. Co-sleeping in the norm for humans and while a few dozen at most die in a parental bed, thousands die each year in cribs. There is something else going on in this story in which two babies die in one family.

• bootyj
  Feb 18, 2008 at 7:20 am

  (Raises Hand) - I too am an advocate for co-sleeping, have 2 very normal healthy sons that selpt with us since the day the were born (true, it is a little harder to get rid of them as they get older, my now 6 year old just this past year started sleeping in his own bed, but just one day he decided “i am going to sleep in my own bed now”). We even co-sleep with my step baby, who doesnt when she is at home with her mom.
  My 13 year old son cant cough in his room on the other side of the house without me waking up, so there was defiently something wrong with this couple or at least this mother as to how she didnt notice her son wasnt breathing.
  I have known 2 people that have lost babies to sids, both died alone, on their backs in their own cribs.
  Attachment parenting, co-sleeping, involves digellence on the mother’s part, it is not for lazy people. My sister made up her mind from the begining that she was say to sound a sleeper to have her babies sleep with her, which is a very responsible thing to do.
  Yes, this couple should definetly be charged because they should have learned the first time.

• bootyj
  Feb 18, 2008 at 7:20 am

  (Raises Hand) - I too am an advocate for co-sleeping, have 2 very normal healthy sons that selpt with us since the day the were born (true, it is a little harder to get rid of them as they get older, my now 6 year old just this past year started sleeping in his own bed, but just one day he decided “i am going to sleep in my own bed now”). We even co-sleep with my step baby, who doesnt when she is at home with her mom.
  My 13 year old son cant cough in his room on the other side of the house without me waking up, so there was defiently something wrong with this couple or at least this mother as to how she didnt notice her son wasnt breathing.
  I have known 2 people that have lost babies to sids, both died alone, on their backs in their own cribs.
  Attachment parenting, co-sleeping, involves digellence on the mother’s part, it is not for lazy people. My sister made up her mind from the begining that she was say to sound a sleeper to have her babies sleep with her, which is a very responsible thing to do.
  Yes, this couple should definetly be charged because they should have learned the first time.

• amyislu
  Feb 18, 2008 at 9:11 am

  Hellcat, babies have a reflex that makes it so they don’t choke on vomit while sleeping on their back. It’s why they projectile vomit.

  Your assertions on co-sleeping are patently false, and you are perpetuating one of the huge myths of co-sleeping, and attachment parenting. Both of my children left my bed happily, and into their own beds. They only come in after bad dreams. All of them are independent. We take a couple night-outs a month and have never had a problem. My children are not dependent on me to sleep, because I TAUGHT them a new way.

  Also, characterizing any 18 month old infant as whiny and clingy is pretty asinine. Most 18 months old children I know could be characterized as such, due to teething, growth spurts, developmental advancement, stranger anxiety, separation anxiety. Hell, most kids are whiny at some point.

  I feel sorry for that woman and her children, maybe if someone were a real friend they could look on freecycle for a bed for her.

• Hellcat
  Feb 18, 2008 at 5:36 pm

  My opinions on co-sleeping are NOT false. They are based on what I’ve known to be true with four babies I can think of who have co-slept. including my own. Every baby is not the same. What worked for yours may not work for mine, my sisters, my coworkers, etc. Your opinions are probably true as well. I’m just putting it out there that more often that not, people don’t look into the proper ways of doing these things and the outcome is exactly what I said.
  I’m sure it’s fine for some babies. Beneficial, perhaps… BUT the bottom line is that your child cannot sleep with you forever, so why create a bond that has to be broken eventually? It’s hard on them. Are you telling me you can co-sleep for however long and put a baby into their own crib or bed one night without any problem? Because I doubt that that has EVER been the case. It was sooo distressing to listen to my little boy cry the three nights it took for him to adjust to his crib.

  I didn’t mean to imply that the children would be dependent FOREVER, if that’s how it sounded. Just during the adjustment, which could be short or very very long.

  I am well aware that an 18 month old can be whiny. I have one. I won’t elaborate on this child, but I will say I believe the parents aren’t too off from some of the more idiotic and less lethal ones on this site. They do not co-sleep for bonding. They do it because everything they own is broken, including the child’s crib. Then again, if I thought they were a real threat to the child I’d report them. They’re just foolish.

• April RJ
  Feb 18, 2008 at 9:07 pm

  Okay, Amy - I have also slept with my son and know what a pain in the ass it is to get them to move the hell out of your bed!! HA! He is seven and still wants to fall asleep on my bed and have us move him to his bed. We don’t even have to lay down with him. He will fall asleep by himself - but you can tell this is a habit!! BLEH! I have tried bribing him, threatening him, we even bought $1500 furniture that HE pick out. NO LUCK!!! I preach to all of my friends with babies what a bad idea it is to start them sleeping in your bed.
  SO now that I will be bashed for that part of my comment - I also think it’s fishy that these fine folks have another child that dies for the same reason and didn’t learn their lesson. Geez!

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 18, 2008 at 10:57 pm

  I think it should be left up to the individual. I explained why I have my baby sleep with me. I don’t care what anyone else thinks about it. He’s still going to sleep with mommy. It’s the best situation for us. As long as he is happy, I am happy. It’s whatever works best for you and yours.

  Just my opinion. PEACE!

• Amy
  Feb 19, 2008 at 4:46 am

  The idea I was trying to get across was that I think co-sleeping is a good idea in general, especially for babies, but that a child needs a chance to learn to take care of and comfort him or herself. I liked co-sleeping because it conveyed to my small daughter that I was always there for her. In my passion as a new, young parent, I didn’t realize that kids need controlled, protected experience with discomfort because it helps them throughout life. And solo sleeping is a skill you want them to have. I know other parents stuck with big kids in their beds. My daughter assures me, I should tell you to wean them from the bed when they are still small. There is a great method where you gradually reduce your nearness, teaching the child that you are always there but they are capable themselves. Since i missed this opportunity, I don’t know many specifics. All I know from myself and friends is that toddler-age is too late.

  Decorate their rooms, new “big kid” bed, rituals, all that. Doesn’t help a lot of the time. I was committed, patient all through elementary school. Either she slept poorly or she slept with me. She slept so poorly she was ragged. It wasn’t a matter of convenience or appropriateness. We struggled for years. She is in college, sleeps like a rock with someone, poorly alone. She’s had counseling, played with rituals, meditation, music, reading, visualization….to little avail.

  Kids are different. Maybe some kids will pop into their own beds gladly. And some will be like my daughter, readily programmed for sleeping with the pack for a sense of security.

  This seems like sound advicethough: While your baby is laying down all that brain wiring so rapidly, teach him or her they are capable of being alone and can comfort themselves. It’s not leaving them to bawl. It’s being in the room but not all over them, then gradually withdrawing your presence.

  A powerful psychological principle is that growth comes from discomfort. In permitting your offspring supported discomfort, you give them skills for a lifetime.

• Amy
  Feb 19, 2008 at 4:56 am

  In this baby’s death, it is our duty to that baby as a society to look for something “fishy,” but the parents are innocent until we find it. Blameless families have lost two babies to SIDS. The findings weren’t crushing or smothering, only stomach sleeping.

  Considering the findings that co-sleeping can reduce the incidents of SIDS, would we be prosecuting them if the baby died in a crib?

  And if it’s found that they broke some of the essential rules of co-sleeping, (waterbed, lots of fluffy covers, baby not by the wall, bed not on floor) we’re right back to the question: when do we prosecute for ignorance?

• Pak67
  Feb 19, 2008 at 8:33 am

  I always believe that there is always more to a story than is told. Amy is right, in that the article said the death was caused by him being rolled to his stomach, not from someone laying on top of him. BUT, was his breathing obstructed by a sheet, blanket, etc???? It isn’t mentioned at all. I won’t blast co-sleeping because I have done it as well. But, I would never have put a baby in between my husband and I. Plus, I am a light sleeper who hardly moves so that reassured me. If I had to do it again I would not co-sleep but at the time it felt right and I knew they were safe.

• bootyj
  Feb 19, 2008 at 9:22 am

  My physchiatrist and I were talking about this subject, to us it just seems arcaic and cruel to take an infant, who has been in close confined quarters (in a mother’s womb) for 9 months and then, when they are less than two days old, stick them in a huge, dark, cold room by them selves. This seems to be something that is only pushed in western cultures (his wife is from India) and altough I cannot find any exact statistics, eastern cultures, that encourage co-sleeping, do have less SIDS and infant death rates than western cultures.
  Mother’s have a sixth sense when it comes to thier children, (example, I woke up in the middle of the night last night because i sensed something was wrong with my son, I went to check on him and yes he was running a 103 degree fever), and this is going to sound so mean I know, but mothers who do accidently role over on thier kids (or even the ones who “forget” the baby in the car while they are at work) something happened and they never bonded with that child to get that sense or feeling that you should have with your child. I know I am going to get some back lash for that statement, but that is truly how I feel.

• katmelsha
  Feb 19, 2008 at 9:37 am

  I let both my children (now 15 and 4) sleep with me. My oldest wasnt too bad with it. He would ask if he could sleep in my room and when I really didnt want him to he would reluctantly go into his own room. He probably slept in my room up untill he was about 9 yrs old (off and on). After that I told him he was just to old and I wasnt able to get a good nights rest..that was it..end of story. He wouldnt even THINK about it today..he would be so freaked out about a teen ager sleeping with his parents..LOL. My younger child went thru his time when he wouldnt sleep anywhere but our room. I finally put my foot down (after he had a wetting accident and ruined our brand new mattress (oh, well). He still wanted to sleep in our room so I let him..in a sleeping bag on the floor. He now is sleeping wonderfully in his own room..but knows if he needs us we are there for him always. In my opinion, its very OK to co-sleep..and it CAN be broken when you are ready. Lots of my family were (are) against children sleeping with the parents, but I didnt (dont) care. It was the best for my kids and I when they needed it. One very important thing…my husband and I agree on…we NEVER slept soundly..we NEVER moved a muscle. We both think its to be instict..we knew the child was there and were careful..even when asleep! If I thought my children were in harms way, they would never be with us in the first place (in our bed). If something happen to my first child I think I would be very reluctant to bring the second in with us. I would sleep on the floor in thier room if that was what it took to keep them safe and feeling secure!

• maminka1979
  Feb 19, 2008 at 9:55 am

  bootyj, I do agree with you on the sixth sense thing. I have had those “feelings” several times in my oldest childs lifetime and have never been wrong when I do. With my youngest it has almost become second nature to go with that gut feeling.
  Anyway, I have used co-sleeping in the same bed only when my children were sick and never with my husband in bed. Both kids slept in a seperate bed right next to mine for six months because of fear of this right here happening and to teach them self comforting techniques that will serve them well into old age. Both are wonderful about going to bed awake and putting themselves to sleep. I picked my sleeping situation because it suited me and my family best, but I see nothing wrong with several of my friends’ choosing to co-sleep. All of their children a happy, healthy and grown way past the age of danger. In this case though, if I were in the same position, I would never put another child in bed with me if one had died there. I would be sleeping right next to my child with every monitor and alert device I could afford. Anything to prevent losing another baby. Co-sleeping arguments aside, this is absolute stupidity.

• Hellcat
  Feb 19, 2008 at 2:31 pm

  My final thoughts…
  Just because a child is not in your bed does not mean they have to be alone in a cold dark room, or whatever one of the posters described.
  My son slept in a bassinet, then a crib, pushed RIGHT up beside our bed. I think it was about 6 months of age that we moved him into his own room.

  Also- What about co-sleeping damaging your marriage? I’m going to assume husbands (and even wives) will generally want to have sex from time to time. What are your options? Have sex in the bed with the kid? Barf. Or send the kid to a sitters for a night, where they will scream because they are expected to sleep alone?

  I understand the advantages of co-sleeping, too.. but these are just some of my thoughts.

  I should also mention that I don’t blame co-sleeping for the death of this child. The parents are clearly idiots.

• wendy
  Feb 19, 2008 at 6:27 pm

  Hellcat wrote “What are your options? Have sex in the bed with the kid? Barf. Or send the kid to a sitters for a night, where they will scream because they are expected to sleep alone?”

  Trust me, go without *it* long enough and you get creative. Nooners, run to the couch for a quickie, have a longie in the bath before bedtime– I think you get the point.

  I am all for attachment parenting, including co-sleeping, and have 2 mostly normal insanely independent and confident kids to show for my efforts. Both of mine left for their own beds at about age 2, on their own and without any pressure from either my husband or myself (although we were really grateful to have our bed back to just the two of us and for the safe return of our pillows.

  I’m withholding my opinion on this couple for a few reasons. First, SIDS is rare, but if it occurs once in a family it’s far more likely to occur again (same genetic circumstances and same parenting environment, odds increase that it’ll happen again.) Second, maybe they were idiots and went to bed drunk, on a water bed, with lots of thick fluffy bedding– in which case the first death should be re-investigated.

  For as much as I’d hate for a pair of baby murders to go free, I’d equally hate for a pair of innocent parents to be persecuted wrongfully.

• graciesmommy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 5:57 am

  So it unsafe to co-sleep…does anyone remember hearing the story of the infant Liam? I posted part of the story…..

  The Aspen 3 in 1 crib in which 9-month-old Liam Johns died in April 2005 sits in storage at the San Francisco office of the attorney who handled the family’s lawsuit against manufacturer Simplicity Inc. Liam slipped between the defective crib’s drop rail and mattress and asphyxiated. More than two years after Liam’s death, the government issued a recall of 1 million cribs produced by Simplicity. (Photo for the Tribune by John Lee / September 5, 2007)

  There is more information on http://www.chicagotribune.com

  My daughter Gracie passed away from S.I.D.S. on September 23, 2007 at only 11 weeks and 1 day. She was co-sleeping but she stopped breathing while ON HER BACK. SIDS isn’t suffocation and a lot of people confuse the facts. I personally believe that co-sleeping is perfectly fine. My, now 7 year old, daughter co-slept. I have three sisters and all 6 of my nieces and nephews co-slept and my mother co-slept with all four of her children. If they find other causes of death in the autopsy the parents should be charged, but if the baby stopped breathing in his sleep how can they charge the parents for something they have no control over. You cannot prevent SIDS.

• graciesmommy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 5:59 am

  And one more question. If it is unsafe to co-sleep and unsafe to sleep in a crib, Where are they supposed to sleep? They waited two years to recall the 3 in 1……doesn’t that make everyone feel really safe.?????

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 20, 2008 at 6:27 am

  graciesmommy, I am heartbroken for you. I have a niece named Gracie and she’s only a year old. Words can’t express how sorry I am for your loss. I can’t even imagine the pain you must feel.

• amyislu
  Feb 20, 2008 at 7:21 am

  Hellcat,

  I never said, nor implied you can just take a baby or child and put them in a bedroom after co-sleeping and it will be fine. I used the term TAUGHT for a reason. It took a month or so for each child, maybe longer, to TEACH them how to sleep on their own. I would never, ever just put my kids in their own room after a couple years of co-sleeping and let them cry themselves to sleep for three nights. I don’t believe in CIO for me personally, but I think there are gentler ways to teach a child to sleep on their own. I agree with the other Amy, weaning a child (GENTLY) from the bed at a younger age is essential.

  I do not believe co-sleeping is for everyone. If you are lazy in your parenting, then no…co-sleeping is not for you. It takes work to get it right, and it takes work to teach them to sleep on their own.

  But in the same way that I nursed my child for more than a year, and taught them to eat, I feel that co-sleeping is in the same vein.

  My husband and I have a ROCKING sex life, and our youngest is in the process of unlearning co-sleeping. She starts out the night in her own crib, and transitions to bed with us through the night if she wakes. And we had a rocking sex life even when she slept with us all night. Our couch and kitchen table have seen a lot of miles.

  And honestly…if my husband had a problem with it, I’d wonder why I married such a childish man, because we can have sex anywhere…not just the bed. Co-sleeping and bonding with a child happens over a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things, and if he is so selfish that he can’t see that…well…tough. It’s a compromise. If a woman cuts out ALL sex in the name of co-sleeping, then there are more serious problems in their marriage than where they’re going to knock boots while the baby is sleeping.

  It’s ok that you don’t like to co-sleep, it’s not for every parent. Nor should it be.

  I’m not going to judge these parents, I’ll wait until all the facts come out. But something is definitely fishy to me too.

• wendy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 10:24 am

  It bothers me that from the sound of it, prosecutors couldn’t charge the parents with co-sleeping so they are being charged with 3rd degree felony child abuse homicide.

  Is this story, those criminal charges all meant to show the public how bad co-sleeping is?

• graciesmommy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 10:46 am

  rockdoll_71,

  I just believe that if the awareness of SIDS needs to be mentioned more often. CO-SLEEPING does not cause SIDS. Sleeping on their stomach doesn’t cause SIDS. My daughter was on her back. I feel sorry for parents who are blamed for the death of their child because of CO-SLEEPING. It is ridiculous. Where is the safe place for a baby to sleep if you can’t co-sleep and cribs aren’t safe and are being recalled way too late. Did you read the article about infant Liam? It is scary and heartbreaking! But i don’t see them charging the makers of the crib with murder. But they will charge a parent with murder with no proof of neglect!

• Amy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 2:27 pm

  Back sleeping has been shown to help reduce SIDS and decrease the soundness of babies’ sleep. Some studies show co-sleeping reduces SIDS provided caveats are heeded.

  Babies are fragile I think. There were warnings on the SIDS pages about letting babies get too warm. One baby had a microscopic heart virus. One theory is that a baby’s own weight is enough to challenge new chest muscles to lift the body for breathing.

  I think co-sleeping is generally frowned upon as a throwback, a primative practice. But some realize that in our modern frenzy to sterilize everything, some highly beneficial practices have fallen by the wayside.

  I read about a tribe where babies wear no diapers. A mother whose baby has a soiled carrier is considered a poor mother because she cannot anticipate her baby’s need to eliminate waste.

• onlyonejupiter
  Feb 20, 2008 at 3:34 pm

  I honestly see something else here. I believe that any GOOD parents, after the death of the first child would have thought better of letting their baby sleep between them. I think that this child and the 1st one werent accidently smothered. I mean really, think about it. Two children dying the same way?? Seems far fetched… they got away with it the first time. Look up the cases of Mary Beth Tinning she got away with smothering her children 8 times! These parents are more at fault then any one will say. There is much more going on here. We really need to wait for more information. I hope that these people will not be allowed to have more children in their care in the future.
  I am currently attending a Social Service Workers course in college and I hope to save children before they end up victims of the sick people that grace this web page.!

• wendy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  onlyonejupiter, you’d think wouldn’t you? But statistics is a different game, talk to a statistician that deals in genetics and they will tell you that it’s far likelier for a sibling to die of SIDS if previous siblings have died of SIDS. There’s a fantastic talk on the TED website from a statistician http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/67 that you should see before jumping to the conclusion that the parents are murderers.

  Amy, co-sleeping is primitive– it’s as primitive as breastfeeding which was until fairly recently frowned upon (until, surprise medical science found that it’s amazingly beneficial to breastfeed.) There’s not a single type of co-sleeping arrangement either, my husband and I slept more like Japanese families (with him on one side, me on my side facing baby) on a thin, low, firm mattress. My friends sleep with their kids in a family bed which is more what you’d find traditional in India. One friend sat propped up as she slept with her baby in her arms the whole time (sort of like a primate mother.)

  It’s not a one size fits all practice for all families, but because it is a primitive practice doesn’t mean that it’s without it’s benefits for child and parent.

• Amy
  Feb 20, 2008 at 4:30 pm

  Wendy, yes exactly. Good stuff get’s lost trying to “modernize” practices that were developed over many generations.

  As I read about SIDS, I wondered how the primate upright might work to assist a baby’s breathing. interesting

• HesMySonShine
  Feb 21, 2008 at 6:00 am

  I have a 3 1/2 yr old son and he’s slept with me since he was about 5 months old. I love feeling my baby next to me as does he knowing his mother is next to him. As a single Mom it was beneficial to me as well because I had him next to me and was able to pretty much do what needed to be done to take care of his needs without having to get out of bed every couple hours. I am a very light sleeper though so if my baby needed me I was able to respond quickly. I also never took so much as a tylenol from the time he was born up until just recently.

• Amy
  Feb 21, 2008 at 8:53 am

  HesMySonshine, I have to tell you, those were my precise words years ago. Our co-sleeping seemed so perfect from every angle, so loving, so secure, and practical in so many ways.

  This is a true story. I am not proud of it as it is entirely ridiculous. This Saturday I got up to pee at 4 AM. My visiting college daughter was still up, could not fall alseep. I said “let me tuck you in.” I got into her bed, she put her head on my arm, and she feel asleep immediately. Alone, she barely sleeps, though she has tried many many methods. (the hubby asked “where did you go?”)

  The kid reads far too much, mostly so she can show me up. In trying to fix her ability to sleep, she discovered that it is highly advisable for a baby to be able to comfort and put him or herself to sleep. There arecareful comforting ways to do it. It doesn’t necessarily mean never sleeping together.

  Kids are different. I hardly think many co-sleeping kids are going to come home from college and get into the parents bed. (I know two others though!) And many kids transition easily at school age. But I think single parent kids need more security from their one parent. It’s tough to avoid that “two against the world” dynamic.

  Anyway, my kid says to say “teach your kids how to comfort themselves and be happily alone.”

• crypticlife
  Feb 21, 2008 at 1:57 pm

  I’ve cosleep with all three of my children, the oldest of whom is now seven. It’s not a problem. Thousands upon thousands of Japanese parents cosleep without significant issues. If there’s ever a fire in the middle of the night, I know my kids will get out safely if I do, and quite possibly even if I don’t. My oldest son has slept away from us on a number of occasions, sometimes on sleepovers and sometimes just in the other room (he got a play tent as a present and wanted to sleep in it, so we set it up in the living room). My Japanese nieces and nephews made the transition to sleeping on their own easily as pre-teens.

  onlyonejupiter, you seem to want to convict and sentence these parents before hearing any evidence, and the preferred punishment in your mind is sterilization, for something where you’re clearly unschooled in the science.

  I had an older set of siblings, twins who died of SIDS before I was born. When I was born, I nearly died of SIDS. It had nothing whatsoever to do with cosleeping (my survival, however, had a lot to do with being in a bassinet next to my mother’s bed).

• HesMySonShine
  Feb 21, 2008 at 4:37 pm

  Hi Amy -

  Thank you for your response and your and your daughter’s recommendations. As a first time Mom I’m open to any words of wisdom.

  In the case of my son, I’m not sure if he’ll have a problem down the road. Honestly speaking, during the day he will lay down and fall asleep by himself without my being next to him. Most often than not he does like me next to him in the evenings but again he has fallen asleep by himself several times in the past. As CrypticLife mentioned he has also had no problem sleeping over my sister’s home either without me present.

  I do know that I need to put him in his own bed and I plan on doing it in the no so distant future. I know it will be best for him but golly I can’t deny that I miss my own bed!!! lol I don’t remember what its like to not have a foot in my ribs or to have my nose hit suddenly in the middle of the night when I’m sleeping simply because he’s shifting positions. (smile)

  Best regards

• Hellcat
  Feb 21, 2008 at 8:07 pm

  The foot in ribs part melted my heart, just a smidgen.
  It made me think of when my son was little and cuddly, and had little rib poking feeties.
  D’aww.

• wendy
  Feb 22, 2008 at 1:59 am

  The article was updated on the 20th “During a Jan. 1 preliminary hearing, Utah medical examiner Edward Leis testified that although he listed the baby’s cause of death as “undetermined,” the child most likely died because he was rolled onto his stomach during the night, and the face-down position obstructed his ability to breathe. ” from http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8280058

  So the ME doesn’t know the cause of death, and ruled it “accidental” but is testifying that he believes it’s positional asphyxiation. Nice to see that in Utah you can take someone to trial over such a clear opinion.

  As for the ME (Leis) here’s another case he was involved in (as expert witness for the prosecution) http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:SNQV9hdXOzEJ:www.elkodaily.com/articles/2008/02/18/news/breaking_news/breaking1.txt+Edward+Leis&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

• BabyLune’s Speedlinking Friday
  Feb 22, 2008 at 5:50 am

  […] Parents Behaving Badly has discovered all types of horrible things parents do to their new babies. It’s just awful, from beating and killing a 6-month-old baby, one that tries circumsizing his own baby boy to a very sad case of mother and father charged with murder for co-sleeping. […]

• ImmortalOne
  Feb 24, 2008 at 8:25 pm

  I am actually appalled that anyone would assume that co-sleeping parents should be charged with the death of their infant. While it is sad and suspicious that this is the couples 2nd baby that passed, I advocate co-sleeping. I have three daughters, 15 yrs, 10 yrs, and 6 months… and I cannot imagine not co-sleeping with them.

  We, being those in the USA, are one of the only societies that co-sleeping is looked down upon. For many other cultures it is second nature, and nearly expected. Every day I hear people say, “Oh you’ll never get your child out of your bed”, and “They need to learn to sleep alone”, or “You’re spoiling her…” No… co-sleeping is a personal matter, and a personal decision, and I choose to NOT be selfish about my space, my time. These are my kids, and I am their mother and the day I conceived these three girls, I made a commitment to them. My time is the least of my concerns…. My time is their time and I’m more than happy to spend every moment, waking or sleeping, with them.

  But that is just my opinion…

• ImmortalOne
  Feb 24, 2008 at 8:26 pm

  Oh and before it is assumed that the older children still share my family bed, no… they learned to sleep on their own in their own bed. However my baby does, has, and will continue to till she’s ready to be a big girl and have her own bed.

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 24, 2008 at 9:17 pm

  ImmortalOne, I agree with you. When I became pregnant, I was so excited because it took me so long. When people found out that I wanted to sleep with my newborn son, they really fussed at me, even though it was none of their business. People who never had kids were telling me that it was a bad idea, this and that. I didn’t let it deter me. I have slept with him since he came home from the hospital and will continue to do so because I want all of my time with him. I want to make sure he’s ok all of the time. It’s selflessness. I don’t think anyone has the right to tell us what to do with our own children unless they are being hurt.

• ImmortalOne
  Feb 24, 2008 at 9:27 pm

  Rockdoll, there are a lot of parents who lose their children from co-sleeping, because they don’t do it safely. But the percentage is far less than infants lost to SIDS. If I put my baby in her crib (which she does have but its not used except for storage of baby stuff atm… I would not get a wink of sleep. Even when she falls asleep in her car seat I’m constantly checking her. With me, I hear her and I wake. She makes the slightest move and I compensate. In the hospital they kept trying to take her away to her nursery when she was born when I would start to fall asleep with her.. I wasn’t happy about that. I think people often forget that not only is it natural, especially for breast fed babies. But women often have a large belly at the end of pregnancy for more than one reason. Yes the obvious is the growing baby, but also I believe - its natures way of getting that mother ready to care for that baby, you can’t sleep on your stomach, you are up half the night, and the list goes on and on. I just sleep like I did when I was pregnant, except my husband says that when I toss and turn I remind him of a mother monkey the way I hold her against me! ~ loving being a mom, the best job I’ve ever had.

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 24, 2008 at 9:59 pm

  ImmortalOne, It’s so refreshing to hear about mothers like you when you’re on a site like this.

  I, too, love being a mommy. I never thought I would have the chance. I was never supposed to be pregnant, ever. Now that I have my seven month old angel, I could never take it for granted. I adore him. Words can’t even express. I am with ya on that one! :)

• mommytoanangel
  Feb 25, 2008 at 3:32 am

  Well first off when I was in the hospital with my newborn the nurses there told me that the safest place for him to sleep was with me. So what do you want us to do when a situation like that arises? Second off, my son who passed away this past October from SIDS slept on his back all the time and he still slept sound. He didn’t sleep in his crib other than for naps when I was up during the day cleaning house or what ever had to be done. We slept with him in the bed with us but like it has been said before there are safe ways of doing so. There were times that my son would be in between us in the bed but no matter the instance neither of us moved while we were sleeping. I woke to any noise or movement of my son, but that night there was nothing, so do that make me a bad mother?? NO I loved my son, and I did above and beyond what some parents these days would do for their children. I gave up many things that I direly needed to buy something that I thought was really cute for the baby. But you have to realise one thing, whether the baby is in the bed with the parents, or they are in their own crib that baby can roll over to their stomach, and you know we are all only human and there are times that we miss one thing and you know, myself being a mother to an angel, I look back and I wonder to myself, did I not feel the baby move. I have gone through so much guilt, but I know there is nothing I could have done to keep this from happening! And it is not my fault because he was in the bed with me. When he was found he was still on his back just like he always was when we woke up.
  I find this to be crazy that it is said that co-sleeping with baby is unsafe, but you know look way back before there was anything such as a crib. Where did the baby sleep then. Look at how many people are saying that they slept with one or all of their children and they are fine to this day. Things happen for a reason, and that doesnt mean go out looking to blame the first person you find to blame. There is no doubt in my head that things happen for a reason, and you know the main part is that people sit here and talk about SIDS and other causes of death like they know the whole story of everything but you know how can you honestly say that you know. I have done all the research I can on SIDS and I still do not know everything. Every one says that they safest way for a baby to sleep is on their back in their crib, but what about those babies that pass from SIDS that were in the crib and on their back all the time when sleeping? What is wrong with this picture.
  The way I see things is that only GOD knows when our time is up here on Earth, and he knows the whole story to what really happens. My best advice to each and every one of you is to take the time out and think about everything you are saying. Maybe if you guys would spend more time trying to inform people about SIDS instead of making all these assumptions about SIDS, there would be more parents and family members out there that are aware of what can really happen! I find it ignorant that because one says that they believe it is positional asphyxiation, that is just crazy. The ME can tell if it is or isn’t positional asphyxiation, because that was the first thing that they ruled out in my situation. I still think you all should spend more time informing others about Situations such as SIDS and SBS, because believe it or not there are many out there that dont know about the things that could happen. I just can’t stand to see that one thinks this is what causes SIDS and the other thinks that is what causes SIDS; there is not real answer as to what causes SIDS

• rockdoll_71
  Feb 25, 2008 at 8:37 am

  mommytoanangel, I can’t imagine the pain you have went through. Thank you for sharing your story with us. I hope that you will be alright. I know you could NEVER get over something so horrible, only learn to live with it. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

• Amy
  Feb 26, 2008 at 5:50 am

  I was only able to keep my daughter on her back when co-sleeping. And I found one study that showed a lower incidence of SID with co-sleeping, proposed parents were more aware of the state of their children. Seems like a responsible choice provided people educate themselves about the the major hazards and make provisions for their babies to learn to comfort themselves.

• wendy
  Feb 26, 2008 at 12:21 pm

  Mommytoanangel, I’m so sorry for your loss and very grateful that you’re willing to share in this discussion.

  Amy here’s a nice article that cites a few different sleep and co-sleeping studies
  http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/articles/McKenna_why%20babies%20should%20n.pdf

  Unless they are co-sleepers, pediatricians and general practice MDs don’t know a heck of a lot about either co-sleeping or SIDS. Many people don’t realize that SIDS is not a disease and doesn’t have a single cause– it’s a variety of factors (genetic and/or environmental) that results in the fatality of a child– we know what some risk factors are and we know what some presumed risks are, but no one knows in what combination, specific levels or how the risks apply for sure.

  When I was doing a research paper on the safety of high power transformers in residential neighborhoods I found a HUGE number of infant deaths attributed to SIDS by MEs, yet those numbers were *excluded* from SIDS statistics because those researchers presumed death of the child was attributable to a clear environmental factor (high power electrical lines, and or proximity to a power transformer.)

  That revelation made me a very unhappy research writer for more than one reason. First, I LIVED right next to and under a power station transformer and high power lines with a two week old baby that would randomly stop breathing in his sleep and had a negative diagnosis of sleep apnea. We were able to move when he was 14 months old, but there was NO WAY that kid was going to sleep in that house if someone (99% of the time– me) couldn’t hold him and/or monitor him, and perhaps as a testament of the maternal brain, if his breathing changed when I was sleeping– I was wide awake.

  Now, that’s not to say that power transformers were the only risk factor involved. The house itself was old, low rent and had mildew problems, there were mice, the ugliest wall to wall carpeting ever manufactured in human history, flaking paint, etc. And of course there might be genetic and lifestyle factors that may or may not affect the outcome. And obviously not every child of a smoker or every infant living near a source of electricity dies of SIDS so the risk factors that we assume to be true are being mitigated, have not reached a fatal threshold, or are not in combination with other factors that result in fatality.

  So why doesn’t someone ante up and research SIDS in relation to environmental factors? Because it’s hard to study, it requires honest responses from caretakers (usually biological parents) who’ve lost children, and who may be defensive because they feel guilt (rational or irrational) in truly scientific manner, it would also require the “holistic treatment” (meaning that the home environment, family medical history, neighborhood, income, diet, eating and sleeping habits, grooming habits and even air quality of the deceased child’s family would need to be accounted accurately.)

  Honest accurate answers? OMGoodness do you know how hard it is to get *anonymous* people to give honest answers about their television watching habits? (Yeah, sure everyone watches OPB and the Discovery channel– that’s why Scrubs is still on the air right?) Let alone ask people who are doubting their very ability to keep a tiny person alive (which if you ask any parent is what parents concentrate on for the first two years of each child’s life) about their most intimate details and obtain permission to rifle through their homes?

  Unfortunately, without a specific motivator to come up with the funds and man-power necessary to do that kind of in-depth study and accounting, the research will never be done and SIDS will remain a mystery.

• Alexandra
  Mar 1, 2008 at 6:35 pm

  I don’t see anything wrong with co-sleeping. If your body knows when it’s too close to the edge of the bed, it knows if there’s something–or someone–there.

  My son’s first night home from the hospital…poor little guy kept crying (only three days old) and when my husband and I took him to bed with us, he calmed down and went to sleep. I just made sure that any blankets and pillows were out of reach.

  My mother says that when I was a baby she put me face-down. I’m still here 35 years later. Back then they’d heard that face-down helped prevent SIDS.

  I think something fishy is going on though.

• Amy
  Mar 7, 2008 at 4:43 am

  Wendy,
  Thanks for the link. My daughter never slept away from me as a baby. I figured it would be cruel to leave her completely alone after she’d been so completely together with me. Would be scary for her. What I didn’t plan for was seeding her eventual solitude and pressuring her out of the bed. I confused fear and discomfort.

  I always hated that “let’r cry” attitude. After all, she was communicating a need. What I didn’t realize was that I could meet her need partially, supportively, so she had to learn to meet her own needs.

  Parenting is just so damn subtle and complicated. Even for infants who have fairly basic needs. I think of how thoughtful and intentional I was as a parent. I think of how even with my intense attention to the matter, reading and being responsive, I missed something as small as her need to learn to deal with being unhappy, dissastisfied, alone, not having her needs met by someone else right away. Now she’s grown I see those things manifest in her, things she now has to untangle and work through.

  It’s such an innocent small mistake. Then I think about the parents who are more limited, too young or have mental or intellectual limitations, addictions, who were misguided and had bad models and think parenting is like caring for a puppy, who live in cultures that scorn the subtlety of the psychology therefore never reach out when parenting is beyond them.

  As society becomes more and more electronically connected and less humanly connected, when families needn’t live in the same state, when the woes of poor communities are compounded over generations, it gets harder and harder to parent. When was there a time when a mother didn’t have someone else to hold her baby for a few hours/week? Young women go weeks on end with no hope, no help, no education, not even the simple dignity of showering freely and maybe going for a walk alone.

  Then there are affluent and middle class parents who are doing unhealthy things in the name of indulgence, empowering their kids in such a way that the child is not accountable, teaching dog-eat-dog as a noble trait, removing and setting them above the common flow of human life. I have never seen so many entitled parents who always put responsibility on others and not their child, teaching their children they are above expectations. These people don’t usually tussle with the real destroyers, drugs, crime, mundane violence, hopelessness, but in their disconnection they are making children who lack the ability to be part of an interconnected community, kids who don’t have concepts of virtue other than winning, dominating and getting yours.

  Sigh…here we conflict over the minutia of the best sleeping position and the vagaries of nudging separation while elsewhere some come up with the bright idea of tying a baby to a potty chair with shoelaces and “helping” baby sleep with booze or giving a single parent girl a male connection by letting her stay with a nudist acquaintance. There are tons of people who know not to do those things. Why are some of us not connected to those ignorant or incapable parents?

• wendy
  Mar 7, 2008 at 11:53 am

  I tried to, am trying to, organize a non-agency (more like freecycle.org before it incorporated) network for experienced moms to assist new and/or struggling moms with basic help. Cooking, home ec, child hygiene, eye contact (!) bonding, etc that would home visit, do some housework and help mom as mom needs help– without crinkling noses, tsk-tsks and judgment.

  It’s not for lack of volunteers Amy, I’m always met with enthusiasm and passion on the giving side– people want to give their time, money, extra items, a few have offered up offices and rental homes or property– but we have a heck of a time finding convincing people to accept help.

  They are convinced that we’re going to call in a social worker to remove the children for whatever reason, they are afraid that accepting help will cut off their medical benefits or foodstamps. There are language barriers. There are pride and independence issues. There are mental health issues. They feel stupid or embarrassed.

  These aren’t bad or negligent people or even those in the depths of poverty or drug addiction– but unless they learn critical thinking and coping skills they are very likely going to hurt their children or themselves.

• Amy
  Mar 7, 2008 at 12:07 pm

  Wow, that’s awesome. You have some sort of mini-curric/guidelines for volunteers? How would you screen creeps?

  Maybe if you target teens? Something like: you babysat for other moms, now let other moms babysit for you. Or how about adopt a grandma?

  Thinking about what scares them. Yeh, worry about authorities, sharing their inadequacies with a stranger. How about initial meetings someplace public, a park or mall? Ask a public library, church or school if you can use a room. I always thought a church would feel safe for that sort of rendezvous. Maybe even start it with a church to lend credibility. Start in very small amounts of time. Heck, let her walk home, shower, and come back. I would have thought that was extraordinary. Of course, safety issues too, that’s why a church might be good. Teachers who visit homes in inner city neighborhoods get robbed and assaulted at an unprecedented rate. I would have never left my baby with a stranger just because I saw some grandma services flyer.

  Hmm….. really excellent idea. Wonder how to address the sticking points.

• Amy
  Mar 7, 2008 at 12:08 pm

  And you might get with a teen mom high school program, have them hook you and your moms up.

• wendy
  Mar 8, 2008 at 1:40 am

  Great ideas. I try to encourage people not to offer babysitting because it’s just fraught with issues, but to do things that encourage bonding, take stresses off the parents and kids, and model skills instead of preach. Help with filling out forms, making and keeping appointments, and basic childcare are the main concerns at first.

  Then more complex things; like laughing instead of responding angrily when a toddler plays with his food, or showing that folding laundry and playing with baby are not mutually exclusive activities, or involving older kids in housework without using guilt or anger. Setting up flexible routines for the meals and children.

  What amazes me is how quickly people take to the involvement. Sometimes moms just have the blues and need another mom to tell them that the occasional desire to jump out the window is normal. Sometimes there are home repairs to be done (I replaced a door and insulated windows– I think we all felt empowered by that experience) Other times, they just want someone to hold the baby so *they* can do the dishes or take a shower or work on a painting and not feel like the devil.

  I thought it would take years and years to see any lasting improvements but when you walk in the door and the home is clean, the little one has gained weight, the big one is reading a book, 4 of the 5 large dogs have found new homes it and mom no longer looks like she’s on the verge of a nervous breakdown– it starts sinking in that giving people attention works.

  I don’t really even have a name for it, let alone guidelines– we usually just call it the project or the non-agency. Ideally I’d want to set up a central non-profit and website with satellite local sites that are autonomous and let volunteers and people needing them pick each other based on their needs and comfort levels. I need a better word than “client” to describe people accepting help.

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