Parents Behaving Badly

51 opinions for Alysha Green Douses Three Daughters with Gasoline and Sets Them on Fire

• Susan
  Sep 23, 2007 at 6:35 am

  I heard about this on the news, and they showed footage of where the father arrived at the scene, found out what was going on, and broke down crying and highly upset, they even showed the children being put into the ambulances, I haven’t seen anything since that news report (I’m not in Texas). It’s so sad when you see things like this, it seems we have a major rash of “mentally ill” parents going to the extreme with their kids, and then getting away sometimes with those crimes. And although most of us would think that those around these people would “know better” then to leave children alone with them, I’m sure most of those people probably have thought that the person would never follow through with their “threats”. These poor kids, I hope they recover and can someday forgive their mother for what she’s done!

• Kathy
  Sep 24, 2007 at 5:00 am

  How horrifying! Poor babies. Fire has got to be the cruelest thing you can ever do to anyone!
  I wonder if the family members knew she wasn’t taking her meds before this happened. Why didn’t they force her to take them? I have to take a couple of meds everyday and my hubby is always on my a$$ if I forget to take them. Of course, he doesn’t want me to get sick and die. Some people just don’t take mental illness as seriously. However mentally ill she is, she needs to be punished. I’m sure she was in her right mind the FIRST time she decided not to take her medicine. So, to me, that was a conscious decision to put other people in danger.

• KTexas
  Sep 24, 2007 at 6:36 am

  What I can’t understand is how the husbands/family members in cases like this think it’s okay to leave the kids with a mother who’s been making threats, is known to have a serious mental illness, and isn’t taking meds/getting treatment.

• April RJ
  Sep 24, 2007 at 8:32 am

  Aaaaaarrrrgggghhh!! I feel for the husband / father. I know he must be in shock - but come on!! Any threat made toward your children should ALWAYS be taken seriously. BTW - what is up with these Texas mothers??? I am from Texas (don’t live there now) and have family there. I have to say that they are a little off in the parenting department as well. Maybe not to this extreme, but still. Is there something going on in TX that is causing these women stress or distress?? Makes you wonder…

• Shel
  Sep 24, 2007 at 10:50 am

  Mental illness is not excuse for cruelty or murder. I have family members with a history of mental illness and not one of them has ever hurt their children, pets or friends. No wonder people are ashamed to admit they have a mental disorder. When the first excuse this woman comes up with for trying to burn her children to death is, “I have bi-polar disorder”. What a crock!

• April RJ
  Sep 24, 2007 at 11:01 am

  Shel - I agree 100%. It seems that people use the “mental illness” excuse way too often. It seems to be an easy way of getting at least a lesser punishment. The bottom line is that burning your children is cruel and this woman deserves the maximum punishment that they can give her.
  I have to say - I love my husband but have days where he drives me friggin’ nuts!!! No matter how insane he could make me - I would NEVER dream of harming my child to spite him. WTF??? How could that ever be an option???

• Ihavekidstoo
  Sep 24, 2007 at 11:13 am

  I’m with Shel and April. Most people who truly have a mental illness harm no one but themselves. I have a friend who’s bipolar and he’s NEVER violent towards others. Self-destructive, sometimes, but never towards others. And he would never DREAM of harming his kids, even in his deepest depressions.

  And if this chick is with it enough to be able to tell the cops she burned her kids because she was angry with her husband, then she sure as hell was with it enough mentally to know burning her kids was wrong.

• April RJ
  Sep 24, 2007 at 11:42 am

  I have to add also, that if I were diagnosed with a mental illness, I may reconsider having my own children. Just for the fact that a) I would not want to pass a mental illness on to my child and b) I wouldn’t want to be responsible for harming my child. Remember the woman that put her child in the microwave and claimed that it happened while she was having a siezure?? I just can’t imagine. I sure wouldn’t be able to live with myself.

• kerrymenard
  Sep 24, 2007 at 12:22 pm

  Ok this is getting ridiculous. These people kill, or attempt to kill their children in the worst possible ways, then claim it’s because of an illness. BULLSHIT. It disgusts me!! You mean to tell me that having a chemical imbalance, not mentally retarted to where they cannot distinguish wrong from right, lead this woman to set her three beautiful little girls on FIRE!! Whatever! I pray that no judge or jury buys that shit, I don’t see how they could, but knowing todays judicial system you never know. I don’t know how it is possible, but something has got to keep these deranged people from harming their children.

• kerrymenard
  Sep 24, 2007 at 12:30 pm

  Oh I got so caught up in my emotions of anger regarding these people, I forgot to mention that my mother suffers from Bi-Polar. She didn’t only have three children that she would never harm, but she now has seven grand children that spend alot of time with her. My sister, brother and I never felt that our children would be in harms way. Besides Bi-Polar????? Couldn’t she have thrown some other illness out there that would have made a little sense, not that it would make a difference.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Sep 24, 2007 at 3:22 pm

  OK I’ll say right up front, I am trying not to respond emotionally here. There are some very upsetting respones in this thread.

  Many of you, even with close relatives that have bipolar are frightfully misinformed, or maybe it’s uninformed about the nature of bipolar disorder.

  Let me give you a little history on myself. I was born in Stockholm, brought to the US, traipsed around this country for a few months, and then given up for adoption, to a man in a bar and his wife.

  Thankfully the wife was decent people. She remarried and I was later adopted by her second husband.

  I had major social issues from the very beginning. I never graduated high school the “normal” way, but have three years of college behind me. I was deifant, distractable, appeared to have no conscious.

  I was your typical ADHD kid, and wowzer when i got to be a young adolescent I was even worse. II left home at 15, married at 17, had my first child a month before I turned 18, and had my third, and final child just after I turned 21.

  I was diagnosed with ADHD, Bipolar disorder, and Borderline Personality at almost 29 years of age.

  The earlier years of our (now 20 year) marriage were very tumultuous. There was much violence between my hubby and I (never directed at my children). I also must add, that I was usually the instigator.

  OK, with that said, to the person who asked if a mentally ill person can be forced to take meds no, not unless you get them committed or they give you medical power of attorney. The reason is where do you draw the line?

  Next mentally ill people of many varieties develope what are called coping skills. These skills allow us to “blend into normal” society. The best example is that they used to think ADHD went away in adulthood. They have since figured out a few coping skills that we develope so that we don’t have to PHYSICALLY move around constantly, and that ADHD doesn’t in fact go away, we just learn to mask it’s symptoms. Talking constantly, driving, playing video games. Things that make you feel like you’re active when you’re really not.

  Mental disorder is not an excuse. Bipolar is a very violent disorder. It’s also important to uderstand that there are many “Sub-types” of Bipolar. The mellower people you all knew, you know the ones that never got violent, may have had a milder form of this disorder.

  The laws in our country only allow for an aquittal based on being INSANE (defined in MOST states as unable to tell the diff between right and wrong) not for being mentally ill. This lady was obviously NOT insane by legal standards, but is mentally ill.

  Some of us (us= bipolars) struggled thru some very important times in our lives because of late in life diagnosis. Do you know what it’s like, from a very young age to know something’s very different about you, that something’s wrong? It’s always in the back of your mind, but you keep going cuz you have no idea. I spent the first 29 years of my life like that. That’s more than half my entire life so far!

  My life could have been much different if I had been diagnosed at 12, after my first violent outburst. This is a case where a 65-75 lb, beanpole looking girl (that was me) kicked the living shit out of a 6th grade boy twice her size, and it took three, full grown, adult, male teachers to extricate me from him. Bipolars arne’t violent huh?

  I have always had issue with referring to severe mental illness such as Bipolar or Schizophrenia as “chemical imbalances”. They are definately mental illnesses. To call them chemical imbalance implies if you take a little something everything’s all better. It makes it seem like so much less than it is, maybe it’s just too PC for me.

  Anyways, those of you who posted that you have close family members who are bipolar, shame on you for not caring enough about those close loved ones to be more well informed! This is a horrid illness to have to live with. Most of the adults you will know that suffer such illnesses are very good at masking their symptoms. It’s the only way we can get/keep jobs, relationships, and in some remote way assiciate with society in general.

  To those of you who don’t know anything about bipolar disorder, shame on you for making assumptions about something that plagues thousands of people each day. Shame on you for making judgements about your fellow man without knowing more than you do. Approx 5% of our population suffers from mental illness, that’s 1 in 20! Chances are that you know and love someone who’s suffering right now.

  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.

  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!

  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doens’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• April RJ
  Sep 24, 2007 at 3:42 pm

  stupipplshldntbreed - I appologize. I certainly hope that my posts didn’t offend you in any way. You sound like a very strong woman who has been through a lot and for that I respect and admire you. I also appreciate you informing us of the seriousness of the disorder. I do, however, still stand by my statement that her illness should not be used as an excuse. You have managed to live your entire life life and not murder or mame your children. She should be no different. She is not “insane”. Being Bipolar does not classify here as insane. She really does deserve to stand trial and be punished to the extent of a person that is not “insane”.
  Again - Thanks for educating us on the illness. I don’t personally know anyone that has been diagnosed but I DO feel more informed.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Sep 24, 2007 at 4:08 pm

  April, thank you. LOL I have WANTED to maime a child or two but refrained, I guess that’s life with teenagers ARGH!!!

  I was reading one of the links that you find if you go to the original article, it says texas is considering rewording their insanity defense definition.

  I am very against this and see it as a potential slippery slope. As I said, I feel I have to be accountable despite the effects of my mental disoder. I feel that allowing a mentally ill defense opens doors we don’t need.

  For example, you could say that Cleptomania is a mental disorder, so then would shoplifters be able to get off due to being mentally ill? There is just no good place to draw the line. I feel that allowing a mentally ill defense also opens up the can of worms where we then allow people who aren’t safe for society to roam free.

  One goal of the justice system in our country should be rehabing offenders when/if possible, but our PRIMARY responsibility with our justice system should be safety for the majority of society. We can’t provide that if every little infraction can be made ok because someone was mentally ill.

  I feel that regardless of your struggles, you either fit into society or you can plan on being homeless, incarcerated or in a mental institution (AKA hell hole).

  I am against this. It is a slippery slope that will lead us to the elimination of our justice system. If no one can be punished because, seriously, we could all show ourselves mentally ill when we make bad decisions then is there any point to our system?

• April RJ
  Sep 24, 2007 at 4:21 pm

  Wow - I am glad that you are one person that feels that you should be held accountable regardless of being Bipolar or ADHD. It seems that all too often people feel that those “labels” entitle them to do unspeakable things and everyone should just feel sorry for them because they have a mental disorder. My little brother is MILDLY retarded and he still knows right from wrong. He got a little girl pregnant (they were both 14) but he certainly didn’t rape her. Also, he is as responsible for the child as a 14 (now 15) year old can be. He is NEVER violent toward the child or the girl. Also - Her parents and my father and step mother are very active in this sistuation. I am not very close to that side of the family but wish that I had more influence over my brother - maybe this would not have happened. They are in TX and I am in CA. I just keep in touch with my paternal grandparents and that is how I know how he is doing.
  I understand the “teenager” thing. Kudos to you for keeping your cool. I thank God every day that I am not the mother of a teenager and even more often that I am not the mother of a teenage GIRL!! YIKES!!! LOL

• Susan
  Sep 24, 2007 at 8:34 pm

  The saddest thing is that alot of people claim mental illness when they commit a crime but never had the “illness” diagnosed prior to the crime. I remember a time when doctor’s thought that being gay was an “mental illness” type of thing, just like there are many now who are trying to push for a child pedophile to be classified as “mentally ill”. At the rate we’re going, EVERYONE will be classified as mentally ill, after all, we all have those days where we lose our cool and go overboard in some way, whether with words, or whatever.

  I feel however that in today’s society, everyone is always looking for answers for everything, and within the last 10 years or so I have seen this whole rash of “illnesses” come into our vocabulary, even our school teachers/guidance counselors are quick to jump on the bandwagon and “diagnose” children in elementary schools as having “disorders” of some kind. People in society today want quick fixes for everything, especially those things that aren’t completely understood or accepted. For example, I have seen VERY young children, around kindergarden age, be diagnosed as ADHD and given retilin. With some of those children, I knew them, knew their families, knew what kind of life the child had outside of school, and to me, the child didn’t have ADHD, it was usually due to lack of discipline in the home…one kid the parents let him do whatever he wanted to, his father would literally encourage this boy to talk back to his mom and call her names, dad did it himself, the boy would throw these major fits, throwing things, etc, and not once did dad ever get up to try to help mom correct him, in fact, dad would tell the mom to leave him alone, that if she wasn’t ticking the boy off he wouldn’t be getting so upset! But yet when this boy started school, the parent’s played dumb, acting like they had tried so hard at home to correct this boy (the boy started calling the teacher names, the “B” word and the like, after all, he was used to referring to mom this way, dad taught him, and would throw his fit in the classroom), and so this child was put on retalin, and became a zombie!

  ALOT of parent’s today don’t get involved with their children, we see that on this site, etc. The children pretty much have free roam to do as they please, while the parents sit back and do nothing. I truely feel that those who do have serious mental illnesses aren’t always properly diagnosed and treated, and those who have nothing wrong with them other then the fact that their spoiled and haven’t been taught any better are given excuses for their behaviours! And throw in the fact that now you can’t discipline your child without the threat of being accused of abusing them, now you’ve really turned parent’s off to disciplining their children! Children learn by the examples parent’s set, if the parent’s aren’t involved with their children, aren’t setting good examples, etc, then it’s not that the child has a mental illness and let’s pump them full of drugs, no, it’s the parent’s fault and that should be recognized and corrected before it has a lasting effect on the child!

  I have children that catch a school bus outside of my home everyday, and everyday, these children are running in and out of the street, throwing rocks, etc. Why? Because theres no adult supervision (these are elementary school age children), no parents are standing out there with them, so their free to do what they want. But, as soon as I come out the door and stand out there talking to them (most of them know me, I see them in the evenings still running up and down the streets unsupervised), they straighten up, we get talking about activities, etc, and they all stand patiently until the bus arrives. It seems now that people are using the term “mental illness” as a way to define everything people do, and I for one do not feel that mental illnesses is the cause for everything people do! I could fake being mentally ill in someway too if I needed to, but why would I want to? I really think people should educate themselves alot more then they do, doctor’s need to start recognizing when it could be a lack of discipline or guidance in the home instead of assuming it’s a mental illness, etc. And honestly, parents need to stop being so dam lazy and start being parent’s again! You can take a “magic pill” to keep from having children, but there’s no “magic pill” to make your child perfect, sorry, so stop expecting it! Kids will react to the world around them, what kind of example are we setting for them now when they see us using lame excuses for our actions instead of being responsible for what we do? I shudder for our future generations, this world is slowly coming apart at the seams each day!

• kerrymenard
  Sep 25, 2007 at 5:22 am

  stupipplshldntbreed- I am sorry to hear of all that you went through in your life. However, I did, and I’m sure others who have attested to their family members having bi-polar will agree with me that your statement “…those of you who posted that you have close family members who are bipolar, shame on you for not caring enough about those close loved ones to be more well informed.” did make me a little uneasy (NOT OFFENDED) just a little uneasy. As I stated in my previous comment my mother suffers from bi-polar, although as a good mother should, my mother hid her illness from us. The only reason I know that she has it is because I attend her doctor visits now that I am older and feel the need to know everything that is going on with her because she is getting older and will need us to take care of her sooner or later. You’re probably right that I should know more about the illness, but like I said my mother never let us see her illness. I always knew that she was a moody person, but now that I’m older I see it more. I don’t think that you should have stated it like that because like in my situation it’s not that I didn’t care about my mother enough to know more, it’s just that she cared enough about me not to let me have to see her like that. I also stand by everything I stated in my previous comment, I don’t believe that bi-polar is an excuse. People, like yourself, live with bi-polar, whether mild or severe, but never pour gasoline all over their children then light a match to them. I do agree with you, as I stated in my last comment that something is very mentally wrong with this woman and every other person on this website, but as I’m sure you will agree with me it is much more than bi-polar. As a person who has lived with bi-polar you should be more outraged than anyone else that this woman would use this illness as an excuse. I’ve learned that I must state this in my comments cause I tend to come off wrong, but please don’t take offense to anything that I tell you because you are a prime example of why this woman is full of shit. If you who suffer from what I understand to be somewhat severe bipolar can live with it and beat it everyday without even thinking of harming your children then I more strongly believe now that bi-polar is not what made this woman do what she did, just being a sick b!@#$ made her do what she did.

• Shel
  Sep 25, 2007 at 7:37 am

  stupipplshldntbreed- I’ve done tons of research on BP disorder because 7 years ago I was diagnosed with it! Be careful where you throw your stones!

  I still don’t agree with this woman setting her kids on fire and saying her BP Disorder made her do it. It’s a load of crap.

  Your BP Disorder did not make you abusive to your husband. Your lack of control did. Your lack of restraint did.

  In all the years I went undiagnosed, I never hurt my children or my husband. You know what I did? I sought therapy and medications to help with the mood swings…to help make life more stable. Once I found something that worked for me, I stuck with it and I never stopped.

  This woman decided all on her own after knowing she was BP that she was all better and didn’t need her medications and then she used her disorder as an excuse for her behavior. If she had the mental ability to chose not to take her medications knowing full well that BP doesn’t just “go away”, you don’t just “get over it”, then she should be held accountable to the full extent of the law for being malicious and attempting to murder two and actually murdering the third child.

  Please don’t preach to the choir about BP Disorder and how it makes people violent. People make themselves violent and out of control. You gave yourself permission to abuse your husband when you lost your cool. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did it and probably felt pretty bad for it after the fact. Maybe you used the disorder as your excuse for losing control, but you know as well as I do that you never lose your presence of mind. You knew you were hitting your husband when you were doing it and you knew you were hurting him and you knew it was against the law and you could be arrested for domestic violence.

  I stand by it - BiPolar Disorder is not an excuse to be violent or act in a criminal manner. You do the crime, you do the time just like anyone else.

• Lisa
  Sep 26, 2007 at 9:14 pm

  WTF?!?!?!?!? I vote slow, painful death by tourture. These poor angels will never be the same and will come to know this crazy, stupid “mother” tried to kill them and succeeded with their sister. I hope there road to recovery is quick, and they are able to find a loving, safe home with sweet parents.

• Susan
  Sep 27, 2007 at 6:44 am

  Kudos Shel, I agree! It seems too many people in today’s society are quick to jump on the bandwagon of having a “mental illness” as an exccuse for their behaviour, and as a whole in society, we are all responsible for allowing this! Doctor’s are quick to put names on everything, people want everyone around them to be perfect, it seems no one is made responsible anymore for their actions and people don’t want to be held responsible for their actions, it’s easier to blame some “illness” then it is to face up to what you’ve done. Again another seam in society is about to break, I hope the powers that be are building more mental hospitals then prisons, becaues at the rate we’re going in society, prisons are quickly filling up with alot of “mentally ill” patients and we should get all these people help! :)

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 11:17 am

  Kerry, kudos to your mom and her ability to take good care of you despite her illness.

  Susan and Shel,

  Compulsivity is a huge part of bipolar. Compulsivity is an inability or a huge difficulty in controlling compulsions. This is what will make a bipolar in their manic phase go spend $3000 on clothes, electronics, gambling, or really anything that catches their interest in the middle of their manic phase.

  It is also well noted that bipolars are violent people. Often times they end their own lives due to the misery.

  Another “stigma” that is very common noit only to bipolars, but also schizophrenics is their reluctance to take their medications for various reasons.

  I hope you also read my post well enough to understaqnd that while i belive it’s very possible that bipolar caused her to do this. I don’t, however, think this should allow her to get off, or to have a lighter sentence.

  I think we should have compassion for people who suffer like this, but they also have to balance that compassion with being accountable.

  A person in a wheelchair may have more difficulty getting into a building for their doctors visit (i would bet it’s a little more work using your arms to wheel up that ramp, than to walk up a few steps) but they don’t expect the doctor to bring the heart equipment out to the car because it’s a little more work. Weird analogy I know, but I think it’s effective none the less.

  There are always going to be hurdles we have to face that may reduce the level-ness of the playing field. I think people should buck up, be tough and make the most out of life.

  IN RESPONSE TO:
  You gave yourself permission to abuse your husband when you lost your cool. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did it and probably felt pretty bad for it after the fact. Maybe you used the disorder as your excuse for losing control, but you know as well as I do that you never lose your presence of mind.

  It’s called disassociation I believe. I have had truly psychotic moments. The first when I was merely 12 years old. Including absolutely unreal strength, it took 3 adults to stop me, as a 70 lb 12 year old girl.

  You’re mistaken in thinking that there is a lot of control when it comes to being bipolar. That is a primary issue with this particular disorder (as with ADHD). You are also mistaken in assuming that I have fallen back on my illness as an excuse EVER. Maybe you should re-read what I posted.

  Here is the pertinent portion of my original post on this matter:

  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.

  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!

  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doens’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

  _____________________________________

  I feel this woman should be punished to the full extent of the law, regardless of her mental illness (IF in fact she really is bipolar), because as I said in my second post, just about anything can be justified by mental illness. Cleptomania was the example i used.

  I have suffered the consequences again and again in my own life, due to bipolar issues, and accept responsibilitiy for myself at all times.

  While I may act out due to my illness, if I can’t control those impulses enough for society around me to be safe FROM me, then lock my ass up and protect yourselves, I just ask that you have a little compassion in the process. I don’t ask you to make an exception for me BECAUSE i am ill.

  Kerry, I am also sorry that i almost(?) offended you! I would really encourage you to educate yourself about this disorder if your mother is reaching the point of needing care. Bipolar manifests a little differently for each person, so your mom will be unique in her illness. IT does worsen with age, and we are reluctant to take our meds at any stage in the illness. We are also very prone to suicide, which increases with age. All you can do is let her know you love her and educate yourself!

  I wish peace to you all. I recognize that we are all entitled to our opinion. I hope I wasn’t too forthcoming with my own opinion. After all I’ve been thru it pains me to read posts that feel like there is no compassion for a suffering person. It also seems, however, that compassion for that person is being confused with lighter sentence.

  You can have compassion for a person’s suffering, without feeling that makes them an exception to the rule. For example, I think all people who commit heinous crimes are mentally ill, and most likely suffering. ALL of them. Normal people don’t want; sex with kids, to eat human flesh, to rape and murder, and so on. I have compassion for whatever’s wrong with those people that caused them to commit heinous acts. I consider each and every one of them mentally ill.

  It doesn’t serve our society to allow our compassion to equate to “that person shoyldn’t be punished BECAUSE they’re mentally ill”.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 11:18 am

  wow now that’s a pisser. my comment didn’t show up!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 11:41 am

  Ok lemem try this again geesh!

  1st, Kerrymenard:

  I didn’t mean to be so forceful with my opinion. And kudos to your mom who’s an insanely tough woman, no pun intended! We learn to mask our symptoms as we age, we want to feel normal so badly, but know we’re not. We always feel/felt out of place prior to our diagnosis, and I’m not sure that changes much afterwards. We just know WHY we feel so outside of everyone else, after diagnosis!

  I would encourage you to educate yourself as your mother approaches an age that she will need to be cared for. This illness manifests a little differently for each of us, she will be unique in her own traits. Most of us are resistant to taking medication, for various reasons, we hate it. We are also more and more prone to suicide as we age, and our mental state continues to decline. Just an FYI.

  Shel- IN RESPONSE TO;

  You gave yourself permission to abuse your husband when you lost your cool. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did it and probably felt pretty bad for it after the fact. Maybe you used the disorder as your excuse for losing control, but you know as well as I do that you never lose your presence of mind. You knew you were hitting your husband when you were doing it and you knew you were hurting him and you knew it was against the law and you could be arrested for domestic violence.
  _____________________________________

  Apparently you need to read more about this disorder. I would also suggest more carefully reading my post before commenting on it…

  Read more about the compulsivity part of this disorder, and I would encourage you to read more about the violence associated with it. While you’re at it, try reading a little about dissociation. This is a very real sitaution where you’re “outside of yourself” aware and watchign what’s happeneing,. but powerless to control it. I think it’s similar to what a sexual assault victim does, going “outside of themselves” aware of what’s happening, but detached from it.

  As far as reading my post more carefully, first you apparently missed the part where I said all of the violence was going on prior to my diagnosis. I had no excuse and spent years on various medications and seeing more counsellors than anyone else I know. I spent a decade or more searching for an answer. I had no excuse to use, I was SUFFERING from something that would overtake me and I had no idea what to do to prevent it UNTIL I WAS FINALLY DIAGNOSED at age 28, 11 years into my marriage.

  I also think you missed this part (it appears susan missed it as well);

  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.

  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!

  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doens’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

  ____________________________________

  As you can see I have learned that I can have compassion for a person without feeling that means they shouldn’t be punished or accountable for what they do.

  I believe that all peope that commit heinous acts are mentally ill. Regardless of their crime, Molestation, rape, murder, thrill thefts, cannibalism. Can you really consider these people normal? Or, would you consider them mentally ill because there is somethign about them that craves or needs these heinous things in their life?

  Can you not feel compassion for their suffering, as you can for their victims? Having compassion doesn’t really have to mean you think they shouldn’t be punished does it? for me it doesn’t.

  As I have stated in my last two posts (in addition to this one) I feel these people need to be accountable. If we allow people to “get off” for crimes because they’re mentally ill then we should just put an end to our justice sytem.

  I can cite cases where people (cleptomaniacs) were drive to steal due to their mental illness, or people were driven to rape and murder a child due to their mental illness, to murder, again due to mental illness.

  Can’t we distinguish between compassion and prosecution? Can you not have compassion for a person who, according to societies laws, needs to be prosecuted?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:22 pm

  Ok lemem try this again geesh!
  1st, Kerrymenard:
  I didn’t mean to be so forceful with my opinion. And kudos to your mom who’s an insanely tough woman, no pun intended! We learn to mask our symptoms as we age, we want to feel normal so badly, but know we’re not. We always feel/felt out of place prior to our diagnosis, and I’m not sure that changes much afterwards. We just know WHY we feel so outside of everyone else, after diagnosis!
  I would encourage you to educate yourself as your mother approaches an age that she will need to be cared for. This illness manifests a little differently for each of us, she will be unique in her own traits. Most of us are resistant to taking medication, for various reasons, we hate it. We are also more and more prone to suicide as we age, and our mental state continues to decline. Just an FYI.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:23 pm

  Shel- IN RESPONSE TO;
  You gave yourself permission to abuse your husband when you lost your cool. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did it and probably felt pretty bad for it after the fact. Maybe you used the disorder as your excuse for losing control, but you know as well as I do that you never lose your presence of mind. You knew you were hitting your husband when you were doing it and you knew you were hurting him and you knew it was against the law and you could be arrested for domestic violence.
  _____________________________________
  Apparently you need to read more about this disorder.
  Read more about the compulsivity part of this disorder, and I would encourage you to read more about the violence associated with it. While you’re at it, try reading a little about dissociation. This is a very real situation where you’re “outside of yourself” aware and watching what’s happening,. but powerless to control it. I think it’s similar to what a sexual assault victim does, going “outside of themselves” aware of what’s happening, but detached from it. I think you also missed the part about that being prior to diagnosis, therefor eliminating my use of bipolar as an excuse for violent behavior.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:24 pm

  As far as reading my post more carefully, first you apparently missed the part where I said all of the violence was going on prior to my diagnosis. I had no excuse and spent years on various medications and seeing more counselors than anyone else I know. I spent a decade or more searching for an answer. I had no excuse to use, I was SUFFERING from something that would overtake me and I had no idea what to do to prevent it UNTIL I WAS FINALLY DIAGNOSED at age 28, 11 years into my marriage.
  I also think you missed this part (it appears susan missed it as well);
  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!
  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?
  ____________________________________
  As you can see I have learned that I can have compassion for a person without feeling that means they shouldn’t be punished or accountable for what they do.
  I believe that all people that commit heinous acts are mentally ill. Regardless of their crime, Molestation, rape, murder, thrill thefts, cannibalism. Can you really consider these people normal? Or, would you consider them mentally ill because there is something about them that craves or needs these heinous things in their life?
  Can you not feel compassion for their suffering, as you can for their victims? Having compassion doesn’t really have to mean you think they shouldn’t be punished does it? for me it doesn’t.
  As I have stated in my last two posts (in addition to this one) I feel these people need to be accountable. If we allow people to “get off” for crimes because they’re mentally ill then we should just put an end to our justice system.
  I can cite cases where people (kleptomaniacs) were drive to steal due to their mental illness, or people were driven to rape and murder a child due to their mental illness, to murder, again due to mental illness.
  Can’t we distinguish between compassion and prosecution? Can you not have compassion for a person who, according to societies laws, needs to be prosecuted?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:24 pm

  As far as reading my post more carefully, first you apparently missed the part where I said all of the violence was going on prior to my diagnosis. I had no excuse and spent years on various medications and seeing more counselors than anyone else I know. I spent a decade or more searching for an answer. I had no excuse to use, I was SUFFERING from something that would overtake me and I had no idea what to do to prevent it UNTIL I WAS FINALLY DIAGNOSED at age 28, 11 years into my marriage.
  I also think you missed this part (it appears susan missed it as well);
  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!
  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:25 pm

  As far as reading my post more carefully, first you apparently missed the part where I said all of the violence was going on prior to my diagnosis. I had no excuse and spent years on various medications and seeing more counselors than anyone else I know. I spent a decade or more searching for an answer. I had no excuse to use, I was SUFFERING from something that would overtake me and I had no idea what to do to prevent it UNTIL I WAS FINALLY DIAGNOSED at age 28, 11 years into my marriage.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:25 pm

  I also think you missed this part (it appears susan missed it as well);
  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!
  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:28 pm

  Sorry about so many posts, it won’t let me post it all in one, so I had to part it out!!!

  I also think you missed this part (it appears susan missed it as well);
  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!
  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:29 pm

  As you can see I have learned that I can have compassion for a person without feeling that means they shouldn’t be punished or accountable for what they do.
  I believe that all people that commit heinous acts are mentally ill. Regardless of their crime, Molestation, rape, murder, thrill thefts, cannibalism. Can you really consider these people normal? Or, would you consider them mentally ill because there is something about them that craves or needs these heinous things in their life?
  Can you not feel compassion for their suffering, as you can for their victims? Having compassion doesn’t really have to mean you think they shouldn’t be punished does it? for me it doesn’t.
  As I have stated in my last two posts (in addition to this one) I feel these people need to be accountable. If we allow people to “get off” for crimes because they’re mentally ill then we should just put an end to our justice system.
  I can cite cases where people (kleptomaniacs) were drive to steal due to their mental illness, or people were driven to rape and murder a child due to their mental illness, to murder, again due to mental illness.
  Can’t we distinguish between compassion and prosecution? Can you not have compassion for a person who, according to societies laws, needs to be prosecuted?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:34 pm

  and finally (and out of order geesh)

  This is the part of my original post i felt both shel and susan had missed. It’s probably the most important part as it makes it painfully clear that i don’t feel these mental illnesses justify crimes…

  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!
  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:35 pm

  dang, last part not posting. ill cut it into even smaller pieces GEEEEEZE!

  The important part of my original post that i felt some people had missed…

  Now, in closing, I’d like to say that I feel that if her bipolar is that severe she needs to be punished. I believe we should have compassion for such a person (assuming she really is bipolar), but we also have a duty to ourselves and others to protect society from these type of dangers.
  Please don’t interpret my post to mean that her bipolar disorder should allow her a lighter sentence. She should serve some serious time regardless of her illness. ESPECIALLY since she did it as revenge to her husband!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:35 pm

  I have taught my children, one of whom is also mentally ill that society has expectations of each and every one of us. Society doesn’t care why your sorry ass didn’t pay the rent, cuz societies landlord has bills to pay too. Society just cares, “Did the rent get paid, yes or no?” Everything else is irrelevant. Seems to me, this mentally ill women has a debt to society now huh?

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 12:37 pm

  Geeze. Again, sorry but it wouldn’t allow me to post all of that in one post.

  Anyways, I guess my whole point here is that many of you seem to think prosecution and compassion must exclude each other. I don’t think it has to. I feel that both can happen concurrently.

• Susan
  Oct 1, 2007 at 1:45 pm

  “I believe that all people that commit heinous acts are mentally ill. Regardless of their crime, Molestation, rape, murder, thrill thefts, cannibalism. Can you really consider these people normal?” Although I don’t agree with these crimes, I do believe that some of these things are natural instincts in everyone (people enjoy having sex, people defend themselves, etc), just taken to the extreme and it’s all based on how your raised, influences around you, etc, as to whether these things are considered accepted or not and to what extreme these “instincts” come out as. Think of it this way…we’re all mammals, the only thing that distinguishes us from our furry buddies is that we stand upright and talk. Animals naturally kill each other in nature over territory, for food, for mating purposes, etc. Do we find these things horrible in their worlds? Maybe there’s some furry little critter huddled in a den somewhere wishing that someone would do something about the darn lioness waiting outside to eat it! Maybe the lioness really wishes a walmart would open up in her neighborhood so she wouldn’t have to go hungry every night waiting for the furry little critter to come out of the den! Does the animals behaviours make them all mentally ill? No, it’s called life. We have evolved to not allow these things to happen in society, and yet it does, and we refuse to accept it. Now I’m not saying that people should be allowed to run around killing each other, raping, etc, BUT I also don’t think we should be treating “illnesses” with medicines that are obviously not having much effect on curbing the problems! Too bad our brains aren’t more like a hard drive in a computer, we could reboot the brain to what we want it to “be like”. To give people drugs to an “illness” we don’t understand makes absolutely no sense to me! For all we know, the medicines could be contributing more to the illness! I personally think that people need to take responsbility for their actions, they know right from wrong, there is enough help out there now that for people who say they didn’t know where to get help from etc, is bull, and in today’s evolved society, we should not be allowing people to use “mental illnesses” as excuses, period, we shouldn’t even be allowing doctor’s to give names to all of these “illnesses”, after all, this is just justifying someone’s supposed “illness” when in reality it’s just a case of their upbringing, their surroundings, etc. Hold people responsible for their actions, if they use mental illness as an excuse, give them a longer sentence so they can get the proper counseling they need!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 2:24 pm

  There’s a huge difference between a person who kills another because they were being threatened by them and a person like Jeffrey Dahmer who killed and ate them cuz he was curious and/or wanted a mindless sex slave to do whatever he wanted to. That is not instinctual, it has nothing to do with survival, it has to do with being compulsive and lacking a conscious enough that you don’t care that you’re hurting another person and/or you don’t care that what you’re doing is right, wrong or illegal. All signs and symptoms of mental illness.

  You also state that people like to have sex, and you’re right almost all people do. BUT Do almost all people enjoy taking that, from an unwilling participant? No, that’s the difference between consensual sex and rape.

  It would be “normal” to kill in self defense, it would not be normal to desire sex with a 4 year old child, it would not be normal to want to murder someone just so that you know what it feels like to take a life, it is not normal to hate women and want to control them enough that you brutally, forcefully take it however you WANT it from any woman you decide to take it from.

  I am not referring to those who take common sensical actions in horrible circumstances. I am referring to people who do completely insane things CREATING horibble circumstances for others.

  I think your analogy would be more accurately related to our work environment. Gaining or losing a job. In “our world” that lioness woudln’t be waiting for a walmart to open to feed her cubs, she’d be competing with the lioness from the next pride over for a better walmart job. She’d be “killing” her competition by going to college or working hard to get a better job. I think your analogy is faulty.

  Your analogy would more closely match the topic if the lioness went on a killing spree killing everything in site for miles. More than she could eat, not adressing merely the need to eat or feed her cubs, turning into a need to kill for no apparent reason. Killing a jackrabbit, a deer, another lion, maybe even her own cubs, and leaving them. Gaining nothing for survival, just the pleasure of taking a life, nothing more.

  Susan, I really feel that you don’t read my ENTIRE post when i read your response. You end your post in a tirade about people using mental illness as an excuse. I have clearly stated over and over again that i don’t feel having a mental illness should excuse your crime. I have used specific examples. I have even quoted articles that talk about changing the deifnition of the insanity defense to include mental illness and why i feel that’s a very bad idea.

  Again, I say I feel we should have compassion for the mentallly ill, but at the same time they (we) have to be accountable or we don’t make it in society.

  I don’t feel being mentally ill should enable lighter sentences. I don’t feel that being mentally ill is a good reason to be an exception to the rules. I feel that allowing mental illness to make you the exception opens up a very dangerous can of worms. BUT I do feel that mental illnesses legitimately exist.

  It is our job as a society to protect ourselves from these kind of people, allowing them to roam free because they’re mentally ill completely defeats the purpose of our justice system.

  It does pain me, however, to see the lack of compassion for the people who are suffering from these mental illnesses.

  What makes you so sure that the medications available arent’ curbing the problem? There are some that aren’t helped, but the vast majority can be helped with those meds. It’s been said that approx 5% (that’s one in twenty people) suffer bipolar or schizophrenia. If medications didn’t work you’d hear A LOT more about crimes relating to these mental illnesses.

  I also take issue with your statement:

  we shouldn’t even be allowing doctor’s to give names to all of these “illnesses”, after all, this is just justifying someone’s supposed “illness” when in reality it’s just a case of their upbringing, their surroundings, etc.

  You don’t know jack about my upbringing, which was very strict by the way, or my environment. I was not raised by lazy parents, who thought i was perfect and coddled me, i was also not raised by parents who burned me, locked me in a closet, withheld food or affection.

  As I have repeatedly stated. I have never used my illness as an excuse, I have never tried to use it to Justify, although it does at times explain bad behaviour. I guess I just don’t understand why, for people like you, there can’t be room for both.

  Can’t it be possible that these illnesses are very real, but also mis or over diagnosed? Isn’t it possible for these people to really be sick, mentally ill I mean, and for that to be the cause, but not the justification for their actions?

  Why does it have to be so black or white?

  One thing we do agree on? I don’t think that these valid mental illnesses should be used to justify crimes of any kind. These people’s illness should be acknowledged and treated while they serve their time.

  I stand by my words:

  Society has certain expectations of us all. Society doesn’t care WHY you can’t meet them, it only wants to know, YES OR NO, CAN YOU DO YOUR PART? If not, plan on being homeless, hungry, institutionalized or incarcerated.

  Society doesn’t accept excuses, no matter how sad and/or true your story is.

• Susan
  Oct 1, 2007 at 3:24 pm

  “Your analogy would more closely match the topic if the lioness went on a killing spree killing everything in site for miles. More than she could eat, not adressing merely the need to eat or feed her cubs, turning into a need to kill for no apparent reason. Killing a jackrabbit, a deer, another lion, maybe even her own cubs, and leaving them. Gaining nothing for survival, just the pleasure of taking a life, nothing more.” Lets look at that for a moment….when a lioness goes on a killing spree, or any animal, we call it rabies (lol) and we have a “cure” for rabies if your bite, but no cure for the one suffering the rabies, the animal is put to sleep. ALOT of pit bulls are raised to be killers….the trainers bring out the animals natural instiinct to kill, defend, etc, and therefore over emphasise that part in the dog’s “training” to be mean, and those dogs are usually put to sleep because they can never be “rehabilitated” and put back into a “normal” domestic lifestyle. A lioness may not kill her cubs (unless theres something wrong with them at birth, like illness, etc), but a LION does kill them, especially the males, so they have no competition later on when the cubs mature! Jeffrey Dahmer had self esteem issues, he said once that he did what he did to people because it made him feel like he had power over them, look for example at the few indiginous tribes/people who still practice cannilblism today in africa, they usually eat the heart of the one they slayed, because it makes them feel as if they have now avenged the death whoever that person killed. No difference right? Lions for example, they have many females under them, if one of the lioness’s gets tired of that group, yeah, she can leave, but where will she go? She may not be accepted into another group, and may starve to death because she can’t hunt as easily on her own as she can with the other lionesses. Men have always tried to dominate women, still do (through rape, etc), because it has been breed into men that they are of dominance, why do you think men beat their women today? At one point in time, a woman would never dream of speaking back to a man, she would have been outcasted by the family if she did (and even today there are still forced marriages, etc, in other countries, where if the woman tries to leave, she is hunted down and killed!).

  I wasn’t disagreeing with you on the issue of holding people responsible, my posts were merely a thought on why do people act the way they do and then try to say they have a mental illness? There is a time in our not so short past where the term “mentally ill” was reserved for those who needed padded walls, they would talk about the devil talking to them, or hearing voices, etc. Now, if someone says they hear voices, or can see dead people, first we look at what their actions are…if they are committing a crime, we call them mentally ill, if they are law abidding citizens talking to your dead grandma from beyond the grave, we call them psychics! Really, what’s the difference? Both are still hearing voices and seeing dead people! It also used to be that those considered “mentally ill” were those who couldn’t live on their own, like rainman, etc, who had to be institualized because no one could care for them the way they needed to be cared for.

  “You don’t know jack about my upbringing, which was very strict by the way, or my environment. I was not raised by lazy parents, who thought i was perfect and coddled me, i was also not raised by parents who burned me, locked me in a closet, withheld food or affection.” Slow down their popeye, that comment was not directed at you personally, but then again, you state you have a very strict upbringing…strict in what way I would ask (I don’t expect you to answer so please dont’ feel you have to if you don’t want to). My mom’s adopted parent’s were VERY strict, she had strict curfews, wasn’t allowed to do alot of things that her parents frowned upon (like going to a dance with a boy), etc, and yet she was also VERY spoiled, she got whatever she wanted in “replacement” of things she wasn’t allowed to do (I guess my grandparents felt that if she got what she wanted, she would be happy and would not question the “real world” much!). Now, my mom is VERY self centered, she was not abused as a child (but abused me as a child!), she always expects to get her way, she is always trying to get sympathy, basically she’s like a 3 year old child who’s finally able to go outside and play but doen’t know how to express excitement, gratitude, etc! Now she has all of these misconceptions that the world owes her something, because of who she is, and is not happy with those around her when they don’t oblige to something she wants! Now, I don’t think she has a mental illness, I think it’s a part of her upbringing (I know quite a few others who have lived in a “box” all their lives and are now extreme in other ways in their adult lives!), her brain has been programmed to “think” one way, but the world is another way! So yes, ALOT of the times, the things that have lead up to a person’s actions has ALOT to with their upbringing, their surroundings, etc!

  “Can’t it be possible that these illnesses are very real, but also mis or over diagnosed? Isn’t it possible for these people to really be sick, mentally ill I mean, and for that to be the cause, but not the justification for their actions?” First off, I think one “illness” that is over diagnosed and misdiagnosed is ADHD! Again, I have seen MANY children diagnosed with this and their only problem was thatthey were being kids and the parents weren’t disciplining them and giving them proper guidance at home! I have also seen children who are VERY intelligent, the parents are offering proper guidance, etc, at home, but the school isn’t sure what is wrong with them so they say they have ADHD, all because little johnny gets done with his classwork before the other kids and then gets bored so he starts messing with the kids beside him and distracting them, etc. What happened to kids being kids? Kids are hyper by nature, as parent’s it’s our job to teach them and guide them into when it’s appropriate to be “hyper” and when it’s not (like when at church your quiet but outside you can play and be loud). Also, how can you say “for that to be the cause, but not the justification”, what’s the point then in giving someone a “label” then? Jeffrey Dahmer was found guilty, they say he’s mentally ill, so should we let him go because his “mental illness” does not justify his actions? I think I see where your going, I think your just wording it in a way that’s not making much sense. Yes, I agree (as I’ve stated before) that people should not be allowed to use mental illness as a defense, BUT, when do you then truely say that someone’s “mental illness” caused them to do something? What’s the point of even bringing up the mental illness as the cause if it’s not a justification? As I’ve stated before, we’re ALL mentally ill in some way or another by today’s standards, BUT, it’s how we choose to live our life that makes a difference…my mother abused me, told me everyday she wished I was never born, and yet my children are loved and have never heard that phrase told to them! I learned to overcome what happened to me (never once using any kind of mental illness as an excuse, I’ve never been diagnosed with any mental illnesses) and to stop a cycle in my family, so again, I don’t think people have “mental illnesses”, I think alot of times it’s what has happened to them in their past (for example, a person talks to a “mystery person” that no one else sees, now we know children will sometimes have an invisible friend, the parents think it’s cute while their young and sometimes encourage that play..”go play with imaginary billy”, we even have cartoons now like foster’s home for imaginary friends on tv, but at some point in the child’s early development, a “switch” gets stuck, and instead of them growing out of that imaginary friend stage, it sticks with them, maybe because as they get older, they have a hard time making friends, are always alone, the parents are too busy to spend alot of time wth them, etc, so now as they get older, they rely still on that “imaginary friend”, and at some point, for some people, that “friend” starts telling them to do things to others). You see my point?

  I’m not disputing what your saying, I’m just offering my viewpoint on the topic. Maybe I’m not explaining it in a way that understood, I don’t know. But I am enjoying this discussion with you, and yes, I agree (as I did before), people should be held accountable for their actions, sadly though, it’s usually that one person taking the blame for it all when there are others who are at fault with it all as well!

• Susan
  Oct 1, 2007 at 3:56 pm

  Oh, and you may ask, what helped me stop the cycle of abuse, etc, towards my children? Well, during the roughest time of my life (my teens), another of those “critical development” stages (teenagerhood), I was one of those people who lost their virginity at the age of 12, I was looking for love because I wasnt getting any at home! We lived in a VERY poor neighborhood, where drugs, crime, etc, even today still runs rabid in that neighborhood. I experimented with drugs, I ran away from home, was shoplifting, fighting all the time, skipping school, getting suspended from school for fighting, all of those “typical” things we hear about that contribute to someone doing crimes, etc. There weren’t many “good examples” at home nor in the neighborhood for me to look to for positive reinforcement! BUT, at a time when I was ready to self destruct, I was fortunate that I had ONE teacher at school who saw my potential and my heartaches, and she approached me. She then put me in touch with another worker at my local recreation center, her name is Allison. Allison saw my struggles, saw what I was going through, and kept doing her best to point me in a more positive direction. Yeah, I resisted her (and the teachers) guidance for quite awhile, but they didn’t give up on me! Allison and the other teacher (named Miss Arnold) never gave up on me, and slowly I started to see that I was heading for disaster if I didn’t change, and with their guidance and support, I turned myself around. I was lucky, God put two wonderful people in my path when I needed them the most, when no one else around me cared if I lived or died! Allison got me interested in the rec centers Kojo Ru class (a form of Tae Kwon Do), which after getting sassy one too many times with my sinsay (and getting knocked on my tush too many times to count by my sinsay!), I learned to start controlling my anger, everytime I was ready to throw in the towel, Allison was there to nudge me back on track. Over those valuable, developmental stages, Allison was the “mother” to me that I needed, and the thing was, Allison and Miss Arnold didn’t have to care about me, they didn’t have to spend all those hours with me while I cried, they didn’t have to hold my head up when I just wanted to hang my head in shame!

  As time went on, Allison got me more involved with things at the rec center, both Allison and Miss Arnold (who was my choir teacher in school) helped me bring out my singing talent (I had always done pageants, even as a teenager, but the pageants were always because my mom wanted me to do them, not because I wanted to do them!), they helped me thrive, and today I thank them for all they did to me, without them, I would probably have ended up another statistic in someone’s study on bad neighborhoods! I still am in contact with both of them, I help Miss Arnold when I can at the school, in fact, this next spring they are having a 100 year celebration type of thing for the school’s reopening (it’s been closed for remodeling), and she wants me to come sing at the ceremony. For my senior year in high school, I had alot of lead roles in the musicals our school did, and for our graduation, Miss Arnold proudly shared my singing talent with thousands of people who attended when I rewrote the second verse for the song “that’s what friends are for” and sang it with a male student, and to this day, my version of the song is still sang at every graduation ceremony (I was the first one to sing it our graduating year, they had always sang the schools alma mater song lol). At the rec center, I volunteer to coach girl’s volleyball (Allison was the one that got me loving volleyball, and helped me play for my college when I started college!) when I can, and I go and sit in on her group sessions she does with teen girls. I could keep going, but I think you see my point.

  All it takes is ONE person to see the potential in someone and help guide them into a more positive direction. Sad part is, for every one person that finds an angel (I was blessed with two!), there are many others who no one bothers to help! That’s why I think it’s important to recognize what a person has gone through instead of labeling them as “mentally ill”, after all, I could have been one of these stories that we’ve read about here so many times!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 5:01 pm

  Justification means that your actions are ok. For example:

  Mary’s husband was beating the hell out of her so she shot him in the head. Since he was coming at her with a knife, and she only had a gun to defend herself, knowing her life was in jeopardy, she was JUSTIFIED in killing him.

  Now, his coming at her in a deadly fashion was the CAUSE of her shooting him.

  Another case;

  A mentally ill person, we will call her suzie, is having paranoid hallucenations. These auditory (sound) hallucinations are telling suzie that her kids are robots, sent here from outer space to spy on her, poison her food, and take her back to Mars for reassimilation.

  Suzie kills her children in a bloodbath. The CAUSE of Suzies murdurous rampage was the voices in her head. She heard them, believed them, acted upon them. THEY CAUSED HER DO KILL HER KIDS.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 5:02 pm

  Justification means that your actions are ok. For example:

  Mary’s husband was beating the hell out of her so she shot him in the head. Since he was coming at her with a knife, and she only had a gun to defend herself, knowing her life was in jeopardy, she was JUSTIFIED in killing him.

  Now, his coming at her in a deadly fashion was the CAUSE of her shooting him.

  Another case;

  A mentally ill person, we will call her suzie, is having paranoid hallucenations. These auditory (sound) hallucinations are telling suzie that her kids are robots, sent here from outer space to spy on her, poison her food, and take her back to Mars for reassimilation.

  Suzie kills her children in a bloodbath. The CAUSE of Suzies murdurous rampage was the voices in her head. She heard them, believed them, acted upon them. THEY CAUSED HER DO KILL HER KIDS.

  Those voices may have caused her to kill, but do not JUSTIFY (make OK) those murders. It merely explains them, nothing more.

  Suzie should still go to prison, or face the death penalty. Suzie has shown that she is unable to live in society in a safe manner. Despite the fact that she was mentally ill and was ’caused’ to do something horrible, doesn’t mean her crime was justified…

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 1, 2007 at 5:20 pm

  Ok a few things. First Yes i see your point.

  Cycle of abuse and mental illness are not the same thing. Being caught in a cycle of abuse doesn’t make you mentally ill. It might make you need some counselling, and yes, it can cause you to do reprehensible things.

  Sometimes justified. Stocholm syndrome is a great example. Stockholm syndrome is not a mental illness, tho it is a condition.

  It is a mental condition caused by circumstances. Same with Post traumatic Stress Disorder. They are environmental by nature, not biological.

  I also think it’s important to understand I don’t think kids should be medicated unless diagnosed via indepth psych evals. i don’t think that family dr’s should be giving kids ritalin without proper diagnosis.

  That said there is much information available regarding bipolar, schizophrenia and ADHD being BIOLOGICAL in nature.

  They have proven this thru brain scans. They can see which parts of the brain do or don’t work based on certain stimuli.

  the ADHD and/or Bipolar brain is believed to have “shorts” in the firing, travel or reception of neurons in the brain. This is why seizure meds work well for many with these two disorders.

  Schizophrenia I am slightly less educated about, but brain scans have also shown that people with this disorder also have malfunctions in the brain.

  I think one other area that you’re in error (in my opinion anyway) is that everyone could be labeled mentally ill.

  With ADHD for example EVERY symptom is a normal childhood symptom (which is why it’s unethical to medicate without proper psych evals). A proper diagnosis will not find a child who’s only got a few symptoms to have it, nor will it find a child who doens’t get disciplined to have it.

  You have to have at least X amt of symptoms AND it has to create an impediment in all three aspects of life. Work, Social, family I believe are the three categories. I believe the diagnostic criteria for bipolar are similar.

  I invite you to search google for “bipolar brain scans” and you will find all the information you like about it.

  anyways I have also enjoyed this debate and I try not take it personally. I think this one was hard. Thanks!

• Susan
  Oct 1, 2007 at 7:00 pm

  Ok, in a round about kind of way we both agree that issues with the brain are of a “natural” kind of occurance (we both just stated it in different ways really), and that influence from other aspects play a role in a person’s reactions depending on the current state of the brain (again, we both agree but just in different ways). Now, with that said, I still think that more by others around a person need to also take more responsibility for the state of someone’s mind. The husband in this story claims that he knew her condition was getting worse, she had stopped taking meds and she had also started threatening people’s lives. So obviously, she was showing the need for some kind of intervention, BUT, no one bothered to step in before the worst happened! The husband could have very easily called and had her committed for some help since she was refusing to take her meds and was putting others at risk. Why didn’t he step in before it went too far? Why doesn’t anyone EVER step in until it’s too late? Yeah, she may have been “committed” to a hospital against her will, it may have put a great strain on their marriage (but to me, that would only have proved how much he truely loved her!), BUT, she wouldn’t have been a threat to anyone but herself then, and over time, she would have gotten help and would have possibly learned how to overcome her “illnesses”. Therefore, he is just as much responsible for the injuries as she is, he basically helped her light the matches without being present! Sometimes people don’t recognize that their about to snap, but those around them see the “warning signs”, so why aren’t more people getting involved to do more to help? I would rather be embarassed to say that I had to have my husband locked up in a mental hospital for awhile then to have to be embarassed by the fact that he had hurt my children, or worse, killed them and that I had done nothing to prevent it!

  I worked for a few years at a mental hospital here locally to me, in the lab. It was an old, creepy hospital, the kind right out of some of those old movies we see lol. There were “mentally ill” patients there who had never hurt anyone and was no threat to anyone, one guy had a foot fetish, and it embarassed his family when they would go out to places that he was always staring at people’s feet, asking to see their shoes (which was his way to get your shoe off just so he could look at your foot), poor guy had spent the biggest part of his life in this hospital, and eventually died there! On another section of the property was a prison looking place, that’s where the criminally insane people were locked up. There people you could hear screaming all the time, and I remember a guy once that we had to go draw some blood from at that building, the guy was strapped to a portable board type of thing, and he had a cover over his face, again, reminds me of the hannibal movies you see on tv! The guy would moan and stare at you with his eyes, it sent chills down my spine. Apparently he had “gone crazy” one day and started on a massive killing spree, started with his family and then worked his way around the neighborhood he lived in, yes, he did some canniblism types of things (that’s why his face was covered, he had a tendacy to lunge at you with his mouth open and try to bite you to death if he got the chance), and several other things I won’t mention. No one was sure what ever made this man “snap” like he did, he had been a “perfect citizen” up to the point until he had lost his job, it came out at his trial that there had been problems in his marriage and he had started to become abusive shortly after losing his job, etc. Needless to say, it’s an experience working there that I will NEVER forget! One guy used to sit and feed the squirrels, he had them all named and “trained” to come to him to take the peanuts he would give them, and he’d sit and talk to them all day if you let him, he even invited me over once to sit with him and help him feed “his friends” the squirrels. And then there was the all men’s ward, where one guy would crawl on his hands and knees trying to look up your skirt if you had a dress on, the whole time asking you to marry him. Some of these people had done nothing wrong, they were just a little “off” in the head, others, like the “hannibal” guy (as we used to call him) just snapped one day due to the circumstances around him. Today though, I think the term “mental illness” is too loosely applied to too many things. People around us don’t want to get involved to help correct issues people have, and in a sense, we help to create these people that are “monsters”, like the woman in this story. I’d really like to know what has happened to her up to this point to cause what she did, and I’d really like to know why more wasn’t done before this happened! Doctor’s are too quick to prescribe drugs to patients just because the doctor’s are getting money back in return for every prescription they write, so doctor’s aren’t taking the time necessary to thoroughly evaluate their patients before diagnosing them with something. I think those like yourself stuppidppl, and others like you, should push our society and government to do more in diagnosing, prescribing meds,etc, after all, something serious does need to happen and change or else we’re heading for a really screwed up world! Hell, I have “issues”, we all have our shortcomings/issues, but it’s leading to a point where everyone will be using the term “mental illness” too freely and those who truely need the help won’t get it!

• Susan
  Oct 1, 2007 at 7:02 pm

  wow that was really long, sorry! LOL

• jaleja
  Oct 3, 2007 at 7:24 am

  I’m not going to comment on the bi-polar disorder discussion. My concern is with the children, and why this woman was allowed to be alone with her children when she was so obviously not in any shape to care for them properly. What the heck was the husband thinking??? I hope she rots in jail for years, she burned her 3-year old daughter to death, and severely burned her other two daughters. After she rots in jail, I hope she gets the death penalty and burns in hell for eternity. I don’t care WHAT kind of mental disorder she allegedly had, or has, she was coherent and clever enough to trap her children in a closet, douse them with gasoline and then set them on fire. She deserves maximum punishment.

• Imaginif child protection became serious business. » Fattening kids for child sacrifice
  Oct 3, 2007 at 9:14 pm

  [...] Gee, sounds awfully much like the news I hear daily: child obesity at an all time high, parents luring children to their death, parents drugging their children so they’ll be quiet or parents even leaving their own drugs [...]

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 5, 2007 at 3:02 pm

  Jaleja,

  that was actually the primary part of our discussion. We all agree (or so it seems to me) that her mental condition should not affect her punishment.

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Oct 5, 2007 at 3:16 pm

  IN RESPONSE TO;
  The husband could have very easily called and had her committed for some help since she was refusing to take her meds and was putting others at risk.

  It is not so easy to have someone committed. Not taking your meds (even when you’re diagnosed with a condition that makes you prone to violence) is not enough cause to force someone into treatment.

  IN RESPONSE TO;
  Why didn’t he step in before it went too far?

  I know for me, even when I am telling my husband that my state of mind is declining, I think it’s hard for him to believe. Many times he’s looked me right in the eye and told me that nothing is wrong with me.

  I think in MY CASE at least that is due to coping mechanisms. I am an intelligent, determined woman, who’s well spoken and is very able to formulate and express my thoughts into words.

  I think he often looks at me and only sees what’s on the surface. He doesn’t see what goes on inside my head, and quite frankly it’s upsetting to feel like you’re a burden to others. As the person who’s mentall ill, often times I just try and cope and persevere.

  Another problem I have seen over the course of my life is the inability (for either my husband or myself) to really recognize that downward spiral.

  At first I think oh, I am just having an off day or week. Then it progresses and you find reasons for your struggles. The kids have been extra challenging this week, the changes at work have put me a little off center, the basement flooded and that’s frustrating.

  I honestly don’t know with this family. I would want to know way more than I do to pass judgement on either the wife or the husband. I do feel she needs to be punished to the full extent of the law, but as I have said many times before, I wish we could feel a little more compassion for her as well.

  I would also be curious to know how many of these people who post (not only on this thread by any means) and make statements like they should fry or burn in hell or suffer this or suffer that, are christians?

  IN RESPONSE TO;
  would have possibly learned how to overcome her “illnesses”.

  I don’t think it’s possible to overcome bipolar, it is feasible to manage it. I am not sure if that’s really what you meant, or if you mean more in a cure it type sense.

• lava
  May 19, 2009 at 12:07 am

  Does anybody genuinely believe that a mother would intentionally douse her children in fuel and set them on fire if she were not severely mentally ill?
  People who do this kind of thing are suffering from paranoid delusions and often hear voices, they genuinely believe their children will be safer in ‘heaven’. Bipolar disorder is often accompanied by schizo affective disorder which gives rise to auditory hallucinations.
  It’s just very very sad and some of the posters who are screaming for blood should be ashamed of themselves and try reading up on a subject before spouting their evil bile

• Angel
  May 19, 2009 at 8:12 am

  lava:

  The mother ADMITTED that she did this because she was mad at her husband. No voices, no hallucinations. Revenge. That is not mental illness - it’s malicious. It’s evil. And it needs to be punished….severely.

  She also quit taking her meds (voluntarily), which shows gross disregard for safety. She knew that she needed her meds to stay mentally healthy, but she chose not to take them. She chose to put herself in a mentally unsound frame of mind. Some of the people who comment on here suffer from BPD, and many suffer from depression or other forms of emotional disorders. Those same people are the ones you are accusing of being ignorant of mental illness. The difference between the people here, and the witch who killed one of her kids, and disfigured two others, is that the people who post here would not DREAM of going off of their meds, if it meant the difference between safety and danger for their children. And if anyone on here ever DID do something like this, they would AGREE with the negative comments being made here. I know I would.

  As a matter of fact, if I ever went nutso, and hurt one of my kids, I would EXPECT to see a story like this somewhere, and comments like these. And I would deserve every one….and more. If I were to EVER hurt one of my kids, and Trench didn’t do a really excellent (meaning spiteful, hateful) write-up of me, I would want to know why.

  You would do that for me wouldn’t you, Trench - since I did offer to do a write-up on you if “something bad ever happens to you”, as your #1 fan put it? Sure you would…and I would deserve it. But you will never have to worry about that eventuality, because my children are my world, and I would NEVER intentionally hurt them. I’d give my life for them. Not take theirs…..

• lava
  May 20, 2009 at 8:47 pm

  with regard to the assertion that ’she admitted to being mad with her husband’ ,no doubt this was something which the woman was alleged to have said to the police who interviewed her,
  The fact that she made this comment quite probably amongst a myriad of other comments in what was no doubt a very long police interrogation means bugger all, especially when the woman is suffering from a mental disorder.
  Fortunately in Europe we do not sentence the mentally ill to life imprisonment. I can think of several cases in the last few years where severely disturbed mothers have murdered their children in the belief that they were taking them to a better place. Of course it is very emotive when it is children who are the victims because naturally we tend to think of our own little children when such crimes occur.
  Regarding your comments about what you would want to happen to you if you went ‘nutso’(your word choice) I suggest that you wouldn’t know what to think because the paranoia, confusion and total lack of perception of what is true and what is not as well as the inability to differentiate between right and wrong is characteristic of schizo affective bipolar disorders.
  Very often these mothers are very loving and caring and clearly nobody believed the children were in any danger with her.
  America the country that jails the mentally sick for life

• LIsa
  May 20, 2009 at 11:18 pm

  Isn’t there a difference, though, between a mother that kills her children thinking she is sending them to a better place, and one that kills her children because she is mad at her husband? Those are very different “motives.”

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