Parents Behaving Badly

56 opinions for No Kid: 40 Reasons Not To Have Children

• Samantha616
  Aug 25, 2007 at 6:00 am

  I’m a big supporter of the child-free movement, but this woman is a bitch. I wonder how her children feel, hearing all of this come out of her mouth.

• fourkidzmom
  Aug 25, 2007 at 9:32 am

  I have no problem with people who choose not to have children. It is none of my business whether or not someone chooses to utilize their reproductive organs, just like it is no one else’s business that I want to have lots of children. If someone feels that they do not have what it takes to raise a child, I would rather see that person choose not to be a parent than have a child and abuse it or constantly belittle and tell him/her that he/she is not wanted.

  That being said, I think it is horrible that this woman wrote such a book when she already has children. I would have less of a problem if she had no children and wrote this (hey, free speech goes both ways), but she already has kids; how are her kids going to feel when they read her drivel? To know that they “ruined her life”?

  Being a parent isn’t easy; sometimes I DO feel like I am “in prison”. Sometimes I miss the days when dh and I could just pick up and go wherever we wanted and not have to worry about being home for bedtime and the like. However there is a lot more positive to being a mom than there is negative. Like seeing your kids learn new things, take first steps, go to school, my six-year-old is learning to read now and it is so neat to hear her doing it, my son will be three next week and crawls around and pretends he is a puppy all the time; it is so hilarious. I even throw toys across the living room and say “Fetch!”, he LOVES this game! I sometimes wish I was a three years old again and could crawl around and pretend I am a dog all day! :)

• Ihavekidstoo
  Aug 25, 2007 at 3:24 pm

  If her children are such a burden, she should give them up to someone who actually wants them. How horrible for these children to know some day that their mother so disliked having them that she wrote a book about it.

  I actually admire people who know they are too self-centered or immature or just plain too busy to have children and therefore choose to remain childless. But I resent the hell out of people who think that I’m an idiot because I made a different choice. There is not a day that goes by when I don’t thank God for my kids - literally, on my knees, saying “Thank you, God for granting me this miracle.”

  Anyone who can say her children ruined her life is someone who never had what it takes to be a mother in the first place. Too bad she didn’t know herself well enough to realize that before she had kids, because it’s probably a sure bet that having such a self-centered, unloving mother has ruined THEIR lives too.

• Susan
  Aug 25, 2007 at 4:14 pm

  lol I read this on a site called the daily mail, and posted in on another blog here, alot of what she said angered me because I feel as if she is trying to push her dislikes of being a parent onto others by writing this book! If you don’t want to have kids, that’s great, but why do you have to publish a book about it to convince others that having kids is hard work like your trying to discourage others? To think she’s going to make money off of things that I cherish as a parent that she’s bashing just really makes me so against her and buying this book!

• rddavis0313
  Aug 25, 2007 at 4:23 pm

  Although I think children are wonderful and hope to have some someday, I think its important that views like this are expressed in the mainstream because it is starting to take away from the Christian ideal that having a family is right and giving up your children to adoption or abortion is wrong. If people were more aware of the responsibilities of a child and the fact that having a child is absolutely a choice, there would probably be less abuse and mistreatment of unwanted children. No child deserves to be brought into an environment where they are considered a burden and therefore abused. Leave parenting to people who realize that having a child means devoting your life to the betterment of that child.

• Susan
  Aug 25, 2007 at 4:47 pm

  rddavis0313….
  ” I think its important that views like this are expressed in the mainstream because it is starting to take away from the Christian ideal that having a family is right and giving up your children to adoption or abortion is wrong”

  Maybe I’m not understanding what your saying here but what does having children have to do with christianity? leave christianity out of it, it’s called reproducing, religious, etc, have nothing to do with having children, and whether people want to have children or not has nothing to do with christianity. why does christianity have to stick it’s nose in everything, who made christianity the ruling way of life for everyone? To say “if people were more aware of the responsibilities of a child and the fact that having a child is absolutely a choice, there would probably be less abuse and mistreatment of unwanted children”, um, anyone can look around them and see what it’s like to raise children, they don’t need a book or a publicwide discussion on the topic, and everyone knows how children are made, no one “made” me have children! I know, as well as everyone else on earth I’m sure knows that children are a choice, if people choose to not have kids, then they should get themselves fixed so they can’t have any! But for those who have a child, abuse it, then have another and abuse it, and so on, that to me is just called stupidity, it has nothing to do with christianity, abortion issues, adoption issues, etc, it has to do with the person being too lazy to try to prevent getting pregnant! I have a really hard time believing that there are truely people in this world who don’t realize that HAVING SEX can get you pregnant, which then 9 months later brings a child into this world! Please, if there truely is someone out there that thinks that they won’t get pregnant from having sex (or being artificially insemenated), and thinks they will get pregnant from swiming in a public pool or from sitting on a toilet seat, then please, send them my way, because I’d really like to meet this person who has obviously lived in a cave their entire life! I think this woman is just trying to justify to herself and others that feel the way she does why they resent their children, after all, the child had no choice in being born, therefore, why should the child be made to feel like it’s a burdon? Christianity has no right to say who can or can’t put their child up for adoptiong, etc. I think that the parents who have more then one child and abuse those children just keep popping the children out because it’s gives them extra benefits…whether it’s public assistance, tax credits, whatever, they don’t see the child as being anything else of value to them except for whatever they can “get out of the deal” so to speak, I have known plenty of women who have been threatened with losing their welfare benefits who have turned around and popped out yet another child to keep the benefits coming, and they don’t even take care of the children they already have, their just lazy and don’t want to work and expect everyone else to support them! Publishing a book like this won’t get christianity out of anything, it will just draw more religious freaks to protest and try to justify their religions beliefs.

• Ihavekidstoo
  Aug 26, 2007 at 10:48 am

  I’m a Christian and I wasn’t aware that it was counter-Christianity to adopt. Seems like adoption would be very compatible with Christian ideals … especially since the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ was raised by Joseph, who was NOT his father and who adopted Jesus as his own and loved him anyway.

  rddavis0313, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from, but it’s not from the same place I learned about Jesus, if you really think adoption is against Christian teachings. And as an adoptee, I am offended by the lumping of adoption and abortion in the same condemning sentence.

• amomgonemad
  Aug 26, 2007 at 2:13 pm

  I don’t see people who choose to be child-free as selfish, but I do think she is. She had a child then decided, “Crud, I don’t like this….whine, whine, whine…it’s not all about MEEEEEE anymore…OOOOH, I know! I’ll have ANOTHER baby!” She decided to drag a second one in on it? Now she just has one more person to blame for her self-induced misery. Poor baby. Watch her stamp her food and throw her childish little temper tantrum. She said her kids don’t give a rip about the book…ya know, they’re probably just counting down the days until they come of age and can get the **** away from her. She DOESN’T need to be a mother. She’s bitching about the children she chose to have ruining her life. WTF did she expect? Oh, her children are just defective…mine were born totally self-sufficient…weren’t yours? What a dolt.

• amomgonemad
  Aug 26, 2007 at 2:15 pm

  Excuse me, that should read “stamp her FOOT” not food. I need to learn to proof-read. lol

• Susan
  Aug 26, 2007 at 7:41 pm

  I also think that she is just promoting another form of child abuse…EMOTIONAL ABUSE! I sure hope she isn’t telling her children everyday how much she despices and resents them, I grew up with a mother who told me just about everyday growing up how much she wished I was never born, she blamed me for everything that went wrong, she was an only child who was very selfish and always thought of herself, even now in adulthood she’s still the same way! For the longest time I grew up resenting my mother, and sometimes even resenting myself! Now, I have gotten over that (now in my 30s!) and having two kids of my own, I cherish my children, and although my mother was so resentful towards me, guess who she calls now when she needs something (she can no longer walk from a stroke she had, I fought to keep her alive when the doctor’s wanted to pull the plug on her!), she doesn’t call my brother (who she spoiled!) because she can’t count on him, she calls me! I’m not perfect, but I’m me, take it or leave it, and I show my children that things shouldn’t be taken for granted and teach them that they should believe in who they are despite what others around them may think of them. This woman should be investigated, her children should be spoken to, and I think the publishing company should reconsider publishing her, because to me she’s promoting emotional abuse towards children!

• blogomment
  Aug 27, 2007 at 4:39 am

  People listen to those who have been there and done that. It’s very easy to take a childless person less seriously when they talk about not having kids. Some people aren’t suited to have children but they have them anyway just because they think that’s what everyone does. It may seem terrible that a woman with kids is writing about how aweful kids are but that is exactly the person who is going to be listened to. More people need to be honest about the fact that not everyone has what it takes to be a good parent. Maybe then we wouldn’t have so many bad parents to complain about.

• Kathy
  Aug 27, 2007 at 4:55 am

  People who choose to remain childless have that right. I support that in every way. But this lady is soooo transparent. It’s all a big money making scam. It’s obvious that all her reasons NOT to have children are pretty superficial and money based. Her kids probably don’t care because they know she is doing it to make money so that she can have the lavish and partying lifestyle she holds so highly.
  I hope that now that everyone knows her points, that they won’t buy her book. What a joke!

• Ihavekidstoo
  Aug 27, 2007 at 4:58 am

  Blogomment, you’re right that people should be able to speak their minds about not having children. But you’re missing the point here that if Corinne Maier (or anyone else who has children) doesn’t LIKE having kids it’s TOO LATE for her to complain about it.

  Once you have kids, your life should be about what’s best for them. Writing an entire book about how having kids RUINED your life, is NOT going to be in the best interest of your kids.

  And I agree that a mother saying that having kids isn’t for enveryone carries more weight than a childless person saying the same thing. But there’s a better way to say it, a way that isn’t going to hurt your kids.

  Before I got married, I heard the same message about kids from two very different sources. One was a friend who, along with her husband, made the decision not to have kids. The other, was a relative whom I always considered to be a fantastic mom. She basically told me that while she loved her kids and would always to right by them, that she wished she’d known when she was my age that she could choose NOT to have children. Her message was, pretty much, what you have said - that you shouldn’t have kids just because you think that’s what everyone expects of you.

  It was a much better way to convey the message than to make hurtful, cruel inflamatorry statements like her kids “ruined” her life. But then, she wasn’t trying to sell any books, just give some kind advice.

• Carry Grant
  Aug 27, 2007 at 5:09 am

  Could it be this woman just wrote this book for the attention and money? Maybe that is why she says her children does not really care about the book?

• jaleja
  Aug 27, 2007 at 5:47 am

  Well, I’m sure glad she’s not MY mommy.

• Bridget
  Aug 27, 2007 at 8:54 am

  Personally I feel it was my duty as a female to have a child. This was a feeling that came from within. I understand that not all woman feel the same, but this decision should be left to each individual woman. This lady’s rhetoric is of an evil nature. Why would anyone tell anyone else what to do or NOT do with thier lives or children, especially when she’s already made the choice to have children. I can just imagine what growing up in her house would have been like. She’s miserable by her own doing and now wants to “warn” potential mothers of what misery children can bring? This is evil!! It is hard work raising children and she should know that anything that is difficult and challenging makes it worth it all in the end. I will work damn hard to make sure my children grow up protected, well educated, and with good morals and sense. The parents that want an easy parenting job, raise kids that grow up to be the parents we blog about!!

• Shel
  Aug 27, 2007 at 11:29 am

  Are we sure this wasn’t written as a humorous read? I haven’t done any research on it, but was it suppose to be funny? My sister bought me a book called, “Stop Dressing Your 6-Year Old Like a Skank!” and I thought it was hilarious. I have a 6-yr old daughter and I knew she wasn’t directing it at me, so I was not offended. I thought it was a funny read.

  If she did write this in a serious way, I respect her for her opinion, but I’m sure her children don’t. If I had found that book before having children I’m not sure it would have made a difference in my choice to become a mother. I enjoy motherhood (for the most part). I wish more of the parents written about in PBB had a copy of this book before they had children. Maybe it would have changed their minds.

• msolsen05
  Aug 27, 2007 at 3:13 pm

  This is probably a bad thing to say but I wonder how big of a jackass this lady will feel like should one of her kids get hurt or God forbid killed. Will she realize that she made a mistake for damning them for “ruininig her life”, or will she take advantage of the freedom and party. Being the selfish woman she seems to be I am betting on the latter. What would be funny is if her kids wrote a book about parents like her. Called No Slacker Parents Allowed:Reasons to runaway from home when your parents are self centered idiots who dont appreciate what God gave to them!!. Kind of a long title, but you get the idea!

• Susan
  Aug 27, 2007 at 3:49 pm

  LOLOLOLOL msolsen05 good idea for the kids! I just hope that when she gets old she doesn’t have to rely on her kids to help her in any way, you know the saying, what goes around comes around, well her kids may consider her too much trouble to worry about, and then when they put her in one of those cruel nursing homes where they badly abuse their patients, I would love to be the fly on the wall listening to her complain and cry about how her kids don’t care about her and are too busy partying instead of coming to visit their dying mother! LOLOLOL

• KTexas
  Aug 27, 2007 at 3:49 pm

  This woman is probably just trying to get attention or stir up controversy to make money. Hopefully she doesn’t really feel this way about her kids!

  I appreciate those who have said they don’t think the childless are selfish. I resent being called selfish for not having children! I don’t understand why someone would think that. Of course, if you don’t have children then you have more time and money for yourself. You don’t learn what it’s like to put a child’s needs before your own. However, I think most parents (unlike the abusive ones written about here) love their children and willingly give up the time, effort, and money to raise them right. They love their kids like crazy, as they should, and they would be miserable if their kids were hurt or unhappy. So in a way, it is in self interest that they love and care for their kids. Almost like their kids are an extension of themselves, in a way. Not quite the same as someone who gives time or money to help someone who is unrelated to themselves and expects nothing in return.

  Just my long-winded way of saying I don’t understand why some think the childless are selfish. Some are, some aren’t. Some parents are, some aren’t. Pet peeve of mine!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Aug 27, 2007 at 5:35 pm

  Susan I have to say, you sound more than a tad angry! First, christianity is brought into conversations like this because they preach that god says to populate the earth. I disagree that adoption is frowned on by christians in general, as most of them prefer their unwed mothers allow “good christians” to adopt their “unwanted” spawn.

  Also, many people who understand the mechanics of sex and birth control are still stupid, and think bad things only happen to others.

  I think a book like hers is a good thing, coming from someone who hadn’t had children. I think she’s right in terms of many women feeling obliged to have kids. I think it’s good there’s a book out there to tell them they’re not alone.

  I too, however, think this woman’s an ass. I love my kids. They’re teenagers, they’re for sale, two of them I’ll pay you to take. It’s like the stock market in our house, what’s for sale and for how much changes on a daily basis, based on market conditions.

  I still tell my kids (the rotten little shits) how much I love them, how much my life would be different without them (ha ha ha not in the same context as the subject of my post), and how I will again LIKE them in about 3-7 years (time frame depends on which one I’m talking to, we figure we’re about 3-7 years from being past that young and dumb phase in our kids. You know, that phase that makes you want to chain their asses up in the basement and feed them donut holes sprinkled with arsenic?).

  I think one HUGE parenting mistake that’s been made lately is people thinking kids need to always be happy. That childhood is for pleasure and enjoyment. Because of this way of thinking we have kids who’s parents sue the school district cuz Johnny couldn’t pass english and failed. Parents who’s kids break laws, or school rules and who threaten to sue if they kick perfect little Johnny out of school for lighting a cherry bomb in the toilet.

  Kids need to have happiness. But our jobs as parents is not to produce HAPPY kids. Our job is to produce realistic, functional adults.

  Adults who can understand that your boss will probably be an asshole, the rest of your life. Deal with it, or be homeless.

  Things need to be cleaned every day. Brush your teeth, clean your room, do dishes, etc…

  Society has expectations of you, if you can’t fulfill them, no matter what your sorry ass excuse is, someone else will step up who will. You will lose your place period.

  and MOST IMPORTANTLY you are not your kids’s friends! They have KIDS for that job. Stop worrying if your kids hate you and parent them. If your kids, at any age, like you all the time, I PROMISE YOU ARE SCREWING SOMETHING UP, AND SOME OF IT’S PROBABLY THE KID WHO’S FRIEND YOU WANT TO BE!!!

  Sheltering children the way I see so many doing now only serves to keep our children from being ready for a competetive, assholistic, narccisistic world. They will never be able to make it without a little reality.

  So, i guess what I am trying to say is that I’ve reached trying times with my kids these days, I wish desperately one more of three would leave home (and no, they’re not coming back, at least not THAT one), but I wouldn’t go so far as to write about it in the context it appears this woman has.

  My kids know what I think of each of them. They know what I view as their strengths, weaknesses and what really pisses me off lol

  They also know that despite the status of the like in our relationship, that the love is unshakable. They have been raised knowing that love and like do not go hand in hand. You CAN have one, without the other.

  Anyone who thinks im a jerk for feeling this way, is more than welcome to take my kids for the week. I’ll even run them to the FedEx store and pay for packaging and shipping (I’ll spend the extra for bubble wrap even). If YOU can survive a week with MY three kids, ill send you my home address and phone so you can stalk me, send me hate mail, or show up and rescue my poor children from their abusive, asshole mom…

• Susan
  Aug 28, 2007 at 5:29 am

  stupipplshldntbreed: not sure how I came across as angry, more like annoyed then anything! I agree with most of what you said, yes, too many people try to be friends with their kids instead of teaching their children about responsibilities, etc. But at the same time, children are also meant to enjoy their childhood and be allowed to be kids! Children aren’t intended to be our slaves (which some parents do to the extreme!) who cater to our every need because we’re too lazy to get off the couch and do for ourselves…it’s one thing to ask little johnny to grab you a drink, or help with dishes, but it’s a completely different thing when parents put ALL the household responsibilities onto their children….play parent to younger siblings while parents are out and about all the time, insisting that the child is reponsible for all household chores, etc, where the child doesn’t get to go out and play, where the parent doesn’t spend anytime teaching the child any useful skills for life, etc. Playing is an important part of a child’s development, no matter what their age, and there should be an equal balance between chores/responsibilities and playtime, where the child is able to be themselves, express themselves, use their imagination, and learn about themselves as well as the world around them.

  I have two children, one age 16 (male), and one 3 (female), now tell me that doesn’t keep me busy? Neither of my children have ever been told that they were a mistake, that they never should have been born. Yes, my son knows that he wasn’t “planned”, but some of the greatest joys in life weren’t “planned”! But he knows I love him unconditionally, he will make his mistakes, and he will take responsibility for his actions, I may not always agree with everything he says and does, he may not always agree with me, but, we respect each other enough to allow each other to be who we are!

  When people throw christianity into EVERYTHING, I get so annoyed with that, because first off, who says christianity is the “right way” of doing anything? I’m spiritual, I live by Native American beliefs, have you ever looked at the Native American culture around you and seen this kind of talk or abuse towards children, or even towards women for that matter within their tribes? There is no abuse towards children and women within the tribes like you see among other cultures! True Native Americans (not “mudbloods” who claim to have a drop of such and such in them because their gggrandmother was married to a man who’s uncle was married to a cherokee, or those who just want to be Native American for now because it looks cool, etc) who are raised within the Native American culture are raised to respect each other, they cherish their children, they value the women, and if a man raises his hand to a child in an abusive way, he is dealt with. They don’t have to abuse their children and talk down to their children to make their children behave and respect others, because they live by example! Christianity even attacks Native American ways because most christians are ignorant and have no knowledge (and refuse to receive knowledge) of the Native American culture. No, most “christians” I have met, and I have met ALOT from many different denominations, preach one thing and do another (their hypocrites), they want to force you into believing their intrepretation of the bible, and if you refuse to believe in “their way” then you are kicked aside and spit upon. My exinlaws are perfect examples of this….their against abortion and pound their bibles…but yet if my stepdaughter got raped and became pregnant, they would allow her and support her to get an abortion. WTF??? Christianity has no right to “govern” everyone in this nation, and I do believe it’s time that christianity sat down and shut it’s mouth and instead of worrying about who’s going to hell or heaven in this world, they need to study their bible a little better and start setting a better example! I have no respect for and no faith in a religion that shoves itself down other’s throats, people hide behind it when they do wrong, etc. I also get tired of people’s stupidity….I didn’t know I had a choice to have a child, I thought I had to have a child because I’m a woman..blah blah blah blah….what nonsense! We’re a civilized group of people supposedly in this country (and other countries), last time I checked we weren’t still cavemen hellbent on not becoming extinct! Even the old traditional tribes in other countries know how to control women having children, and they don’t abuse the ones they have, you learn to control your sexual urges, you use common sense, and you cherish the gifts that are given to you. People just really make me sick with all their excuses…well because I’m catholic and we’re against birthcontrol, and because my husband is a horny bastard who lusts in the flesh (although that’s against the bible!), we now have 10 children with another on the way, and gee, I didn’t know I had a choice to say I don’t want to be catholic and live that way. What a bunch of nonsense, these people really must truely live in a box and never get out! At one time in American culture, it was expected to have a large family, not for religious beliefs, but because of farming purposes…you needed to have alot of children to help with the farming, but society has “evolved” from that, and I have a hard time believe that a woman knows she now has the right to vote but doesn’t have the right to say no to having children and keeping her legs shut or using birthcontrol! The woman in this blog, I have a hard time believing that her husband forced her to have children, and considering I read the original article and this woman lives in the UK, I have a hard time believing that she didn’t already know before having not one, but two children, that children are a handful! But you know, that’s what you cherish and laugh about later in life…those things that seemed to make you want to pull your hair out…and you learned something about yourself from it! Yes, we’re here to teach our children, but their also here to teach us…they teach us to not take things for granted, they teach us not to always be so serious, they teach us how to be youthful again, they teach us how to love unconditionally, they teach us how to deal with our own shortcomings, they accept us for who we are and don’t expect us to change when those around us don’t like us for who we are, they teach us how to be humble and not be selfish, I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. Life is a web, we’re all here to teach each other something, young and old alike, life is meant to be lived and enjoyed, if you can’t handle sharing your life with children, then get a dog, and leave the rest of us alone with trying to “convince” us that your religious ways are correct, or your way of thinking is the only way to think, etc. I think a book like her’s just gives others (as well as herself) justification for their selfishness and resentful ways, but then again, isn’t that how christianity also behaves? Just my thoughts!

• Susan
  Aug 28, 2007 at 5:30 am

  sorry, didn’t really mean for that to be so long, but as some of you know, when I get started on a topic, the fingers fly! LOL

• Shel
  Aug 28, 2007 at 6:40 am

  stupipplshldntbreed - I’m LMAO! I’ve been trying to sell my kids on E-bay for months, but there have been no bids and the auctions close…and I keep them :0)

• blogomment
  Aug 28, 2007 at 8:02 am

  I don’t think this woman’s kids are going to hate her or treat her badly when she’s older. I’m guessing if she was really such a bad parent she wouldn’t think it was such hard work.

  Also, I don’t agree that she’s given up her right to complain. It’s nice if a parent advises a friend privately about how much work parenting is but one on one is never going to be as effective as the massive attention that’s being paid to this book. It’s going to cause many people to think about their choice. Sadly, I bet most of the people who bother to think seriously about this are probably the ones that would make good parents anyway.

• nat
  Aug 28, 2007 at 10:45 am

  Well if she’s writing an entire book about how much having kids is such a burden I hate to see what her children end up writing about her when they are older…I can think of a few titles. How about everyone else?

• Susan
  Aug 28, 2007 at 11:38 am

  here’s an article I found on CNN, the mother explains “8 things that no one tells you about being a mom”, I like the way she has worded this article, she not only offers some of the “issues” of having children around, but she also offers a “silver lining”. I found this article to be VERY well written, it has some humor (I liked how her daughter responded about gum in the “there’s no privacy” part of the article LOL made me laugh!), it has some serious points, but it’s not degrading the children or calling them burdons, etc. Check it out, I think you’ll agree it’s a much better written article then this woman in the blog is writing with her book!

  http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/family/08/28/par.mom.surprises/index.html

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Aug 28, 2007 at 3:27 pm

  Susan, I stand corrected. I am glad you’re not angry lol!

  I have to say I agree with much of what you say in your response about christianity. I, too, am not christian. I do respect their views though. I think that it comes up in many topics because it is from christian principles that we have derived our society here in America. I also THINK that the vast majority of Americans are christian. So, even if yo’ure not you live amongst them and have to understand their workings or you’re lost.

  I disagree to a point that early americans had large families for farming purposes. I agree that was part of why, but all christian religions have always preached having as many kids as you could and/or wanted to have. Many of these religions don’t like birth control, masturbation or abortion because they feel it defiles the god-like gift of procreation that was bestowed upon man by god.

  I do agree with your statements about christianity and abortion. The hypocrisy of it being ok to “punish” an unborn child with abortion because of the heinous act of a sperm donor to me is also ludicrous.

  It starts to make their principles seem a matter of convenience. For me (sounds like, as well as for you) either life begins at conception and all life is precious, or it’s not.

  That unborn child who’s the result of a rape is being punished when he’s aborted strictly because he was the result of a rape. But it’s not ok to “punish” a child (with the same means) who’s going to be born to a meth addict and her boyfriend, who will burn him, shave his eyebrows and cut his eyelashes. Again, not ok to abort a child because you made a mistake and feel unable to handle your responsibility.

  Just for clarity here, i am pro life. I feel abortion is murder, but I also feel that a person’s opinion on abortion is centered in religion. I feel that based on religious freedom people should be able to decide for themselves.

• Susan
  Aug 28, 2007 at 4:35 pm

  stupidppl I’m glad we can agree to disagree or agree to agree without getting angry LOLOL I agree that there is a fine line on abortion, you either kill a baby before it takes its first breath, or you allow it to be abused in a family that doesn’t want it, it’s a hard line to decide and walk along. I feel that it’s not my place to make that decision for anyone, I am by no means God, but, if a friend of mine was to ask my opinion on it because they were considering an abortion, I would definitely be sure to discuss with them all the options, weigh the circumstances, etc, but the choice is ultimately theirs! Using the rape scenerio, if I was to be raped, and became pregnant, well, first off, it seems unfair that I would have to be put into that situation of what to do. I would either have the baby, which then in turn could make me feel resentful to the child everytime I look at it because it reminds me of the rape, although I may not “try” to look at the child that way, or do I abort this child who, like me, didn’t ask for any of this? It’s a two headed snake, and when people are put into that situation, only they can make the decision that they have to live with, whether we agree or not is not up to us! Now, for a woman who continously has unprotected sex and is with a different guy every day and becomes pregnant over and over again, that’s wrong, she is obviously being stupid and needs a reality check! Or the mother who will die if she doesn’t abort the baby, do we allow the mother to live or do we allow the child to live with no mother? Those are all things that should be considered when someone goes in for an abortion. I think there should be a “background” kind of check on the person requesting the abortion, and all alternatives should be raised before the abortion is allowed. If the person comes in after a certain point in their pregnancy, then they shouldn’t be allowed to continue with the abortion (unless it is something absolutely life threatening to either the mother or the baby in some way), and the pregnancy should go fullterm, then the child put up for adoption, after all, if your 6 months along in your pregnancy, you’ve had plenty of time to decide whether you actually want a kid or not by that point! But again, I don’t have to live with these choices that people make, and I don’t feel I have a right to say one way or the other. I think abortion is something that should be handled on an individual basis, in the privacy among all of those involved, and the government and other “outside” forces should have no say in it. We’re not a third world country with people using coathangers and broken bottles to abort themselves, and if people would allow others to make these choices on their own without so much criticisim from religion, govt, etc, I have a feeling that there wouldn’t be any safety issues and people resorting to “horrible tactics” to abort babies.

• Lisa
  Aug 28, 2007 at 9:36 pm

  stupidppl, I so agree with everything you said. I don’t want to sell my children (they are still babies, both girls, one is two and the other is 5 months) yet, but when they are teenagers I can promise that I will. I also could never have an abortion, but I believe that my body is mine to control and other women should have the right to decide for themselves. You’ve said so many intelligent things here that there isn’t enough time for me to go point-by-point, but you’ve hit the nail on the head about navigating America’s christian based society with understanding and tolerance and that we are raising productive and functional members of sociey (not just happy ppl). And you are not a “jerk” for getting frustraited and wanting be away from your kids sometimes. We all feel that way once in a while, so don’t ever let someone make you feel bad about it.

  rddavis0313, “…there would probably be less abuse and mistreatment of unwanted children.” I’m sorry to disappoint you but this book won’t even put a dent in that problem because it is a statisic fact that a large percentage of child abuse cases are from families where the parent is uneducated, unwed, and living below the poverty level. In my personal experience, most of the ppl I’ve met that are uneducated don’t read many books, so there isn’t a chance that this will help.

• Shel
  Aug 29, 2007 at 6:09 am

  We are touching on some pretty hot topics in this blog. I see both sides of most of the issues here. I am pro-choice and made the decision to terminate a pregnancy of my own many years ago. I think it is a matter of privacy and if we take the right to chose away from women, many will go back to the way it was before Roe v. Wade. I don’t think we as a society want to see that happen. It was a terrible and frightening time for women. On that same note, I terminated before the end of my first tri-mester and personally I take issue with women choosing to abort pregnancy’s when the fetus is more than 12 weeks in gestation. I do think there should be limitations to late term abortions. A woman who waits too long to make the choice should not be allowed to make it after a certain time without the backing of a reputable OB/GYN. I believe the child has the right to live if it is at a stage of pregnancy where that would be possible….strange opinion? Possibly. Still, it is one I would be willing to defend if necessary.

  I agree that Christianity is a powerful movement in the US and in many countries around the world. I am a Christian, but I am also open to other methods/forms of religion and find that most are parallel to one another anyway, searching for love and goodness in mankind.

  I agree that this book won’t even touch the rates of abuse in children. Lisa is correct about most being uneducated and poor. Those people spend their money on things unrelated to the welfare of their children and many are motivated to procreate not out of love for family, but desire for money….money from government and if there is a father, child support. I spent many years in the southern states and can attest to their desires to keep the babies coming in order to continue living in the system. It’s sad but true.

• Kathy
  Aug 29, 2007 at 6:54 am

  Shel-
  Please don’t take this as an attempt to pick a fight with you, but am I understanding correctly that you believe those in the southern states desire to keep babies coming in order to continue living in the system? And that the poor spend their money on things not related to the welfare of their children? Being a native Texan and currently living in South Carolina and from a poor family, I am an example of the complete opposite.
  My parents had 3 children, we were very poor, I never owned anything NEW, but I had plenty. They spent their money on bills, rent and groceries. There were times in our lives that we were dependant on food stamps to make ends meet, but my parents did the best they could. My mother held two jobs, my father worked sun -up to sundown on a farm and I even took a job at age 13. We were Catholic, but obviously, my parents practiced birth control. There is age difference between me and my sisters, they never had more than one in diapers. Most of our family members and friends were just like us. Working poor. Now, we are all successful tax paying members of society. Through hard work and lessons from our parents, most of us have become upper middle class. All of the people that we know in SC are professionals with family. Now, I won’t argue that there are alot of people out there that do live off the government and have no desire to live any other way, but they are from all over the US. Alot of us southerners think of the people that live in the drug riddled government housing and projects in the north when we think of peoplel abusing the system. So it goes both ways. Poor people do not automatically make bad parents. Being a good parent is an instinct (or desire) that some people just don’t have. Rich or poor. Please be careful not to overgeneralize. I do agree however, that this book will not reach the ones that probably need to read it the most.

• Susan
  Aug 29, 2007 at 8:54 am

  stupidppl, you mentioned “I feel that based on religious freedom people should be able to decide for themselves.” I agree that it should be based on a person’s freedom to make that decision, whether it’s for religious purposes, whatever, when it comes to abortion and many other topics.

  The thing is, in this country, although we have freedom of religion, apparently that right doesn’t really hold much freedom for those who aren’t into “christianity”. I always find it funny that christianity ALWAYS sticks it’s nose into all of these different types of issues, going against other’s rights to freedom of religion, saying what’s right and what’s not, etc. Then “christianity” hides behind the “freedom of speech” part to justify it’s right to say something and dispute whatever the topic is. There are so many versions of “christianity” out there that it’s no wonder religion is up in arms with itself and others, maybe “christianity” needs to get itself under control before it tries to “control” others!

  As far as the whole north, south, rich, poor stuff. That’s another area where “christianity” needs to really take a good long look at itself. Being a single mother (who come this friday will be unemployed yet again due to the current assignment ending and the temp agency having no jobs available!), I know of the heartaches of trying to keep a roof over my children’s heads, living paycheck to paycheck and not being able to afford much. I don’t like taking “handouts” like most others, I would rather work and achieve things myself, although at times it would be nice to receive assistance! I have tried going to various churches based on social services recommendations to try to get assistance with a bill, or with rent, or with food. What I have always found interesting is that “christianity” really doesn’t care about the poor and hungry, yeah, they have a food pantry that might give you 3 cans of various vegetables to feed 3 people with for an entire week, but really, thats about as far as most churches are willing to help, and that’s only becuase I’m sure they are getting a tax break of some kind! Every church I have gone to to try to get help with my rent or utility bills has told me they won’t help unless I’m a member of their church! WTF??? Or they push on me to come to church on Sundays all becuase they gave me 3 cans of vegetables! How is that christianity really helping the poor and the hungry when they put stipulations on helping? I thought they were supposed to help without strings attached, after all, jesus fed the multitudes and didn’t ask for anything in return! And, I have even gone and applied at various churches for a job, just to be told I didn’t get the job because I’m not an active member or a member period of their church. Why do I suddenly have to change my beliefs just to get assistance or a job? From my past experiences, alot of churches are very prejudice towards those they should be helping! So there are plenty of “poor” people out there who try so very damn hard and just keep getting knocked back down, I only wish I was lucky enough sometimes to be able to just sit at home and collect welfare all the time! I hug my kids, we struggle through, so even though it is poor people who are abusing the system and their children (the majority of the time), there are plenty of us others out here who are a different “class of poor” I guess you could say. I just wish more of the “christians” were willing to lend a hand to their fellow man, which the bible says we’re supposed to do!

• Shel
  Aug 29, 2007 at 11:16 am

  Kathy - No fight. I think you have valid points. My mom was single and poor when we lived in the south, but she worked and she cared for me as best she could. Very similar to your up-bringing I suppose. I’ve been to Detroit before and live outside Baltimore now and you are correct, there are a lot of poor people living in subsidized housing (the gettos) who I’m sure have the value system of having kids to stay on welfare. I’m sorry if I over generalized and didn’t make a clear point.

  Susan - I’m so sorry you are having a hard time. I was there myself no less than 5 years ago with my daughter in one of the most expensive counties in the country. I found that there were some churches in the area that helped me out, but I was a member of one and my mother of the other, so I cannot argue your case. I hope things get easier for you. I know all about pride, it’s hard to ask for help. I’m hoping for nothing but good things for you and your family!

• Susan
  Aug 29, 2007 at 12:19 pm

  Thank you Shel, I appreciate that. I wasn’t trying to give my life story or get sympothy or anything, I was just trying to express my personal experience with why I feel so many things are so screwed up in our society, so I hope no one took all of that the wrong way! There are days I sit back and just shake my head, wondering what is going on in this world, we have our priorities screwed up! We keep getting into wars that we shouldn’t be in all because we didn’t learn anything from the past wars we were in, etc, history just keeps repeating itself and we still don’t learn anything from our past mistakes, and in the process of history repeating itself, we actually make things worse each time it repeats! I’m just really scared what kind of world we are leaving for our children and their children and so on to have to live in and clean up, I think humanity is on the verge of self-destruction if things don’t start changing soon and for the good! People have lost their common sense, they have lost their humanity towards others, and everyone has their priorities screwed up (for example…people are more worried about who’s smoking a cigerette where, or who adopted who from what country, etc. instead of worrying about who among their neighbors have no food, no job, and offering them a helping hand, or who’s abusing their children and stepping in to stop it, etc!). Don’t pray for me but more then anything pray for those who just can’t seem to see how much harm they are doing instead of good! :)

• Bree
  Aug 29, 2007 at 5:00 pm

  well I am glad she thinks that..A person like that definately does not need to have any kids in their life and I am glad she knows that she’d be a danger to them. Any one who feels more trapped in parenthood than blessed needs not to have kids. I haven’t been happier in my life with my son. I melt every morning that I see his little smile (or screaming face, depending on how hungry he is.) If thats what prisons are like, no wonder so many people are in there……..

  Having my son was the best thing that has ever happened to me. If it can’t be the best thing to happen to other people, I really hope they take the same action and realize they are unfit and stick to it…….
  Optimistic…..

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Aug 29, 2007 at 5:09 pm

  Susan,

  I am also sorry to hear about your temp assignment ending. we have already talked about hardships and i make the same offer, if you would like my help I would be happy to see if I can find you resources you haven’t already explored.

  now for a few comments :o)

  1st you see christianity sticking it’s nose in all the time because you live in a christian society. Not all of us are, but the vast majority. So you don’t have the opportunity to see what it would be like in a predominantly buddhist, muslim, hindu, jewish society would be like.

  I can tell you to take a look at the world around you. I don’t see ANY countries without religious strife. ALMOST All religions, christian or not, think they’re the only ones going to heaven, they all think their interpretation of scriptures is right and so on.

  In fact, many Americans don’t know that the muslim religion is based on the life of jesus christ. It’s just a different version of the story.

  So, if you wanna spend a year living in the middle east lol and THEN tell me that no other religion buts their nose in like christians, we can talk.

  I would ask you to elaborate more (maybe an example or two) of what you mean when you say that christians butt their noses in and then fall back on freedom of speech.

  Freedom of speech is one of our most important laws. In fact, that I know of there are only two limitations to that constitutional right. 1st you can’t scream fire in a crowded theater (yo’ure basically inciting a riot), and, at least in Utah, you can’t say Fuck at a hockey game (stupid huh?).

  Hate speech (speech against gays, jews, nazis, women, men, or ANY other group) is protected because there’s a fine line between thought, speech and action.

  If you start outlawing hate speech then what you basically do is send the message that we all have to think alike, which is completely contrary to the concepts our founding fathers implemented in founding our country.

  So, lets say we ban hate speech. You can no longer talk bad about blacks, gays, women, men, race, religion.

  Well, susan, I may agree with much of what you express about christians, but it’s hate speech. I am sure there are a buttload of christians out there that are offended by the things you’ve said aobut them in this thread, as well as the other thread that this topic came up in.

  So you can either be guilty of hate speech or pretend to be/think/act like others. That is why the neo-nazi, white trash, hitler lovin bastards were allowed to have their parade in a very jewish community, i believe it was in the late 60’s maybe up to a decade later.

  It pissed off so many people. But the decision was made i think by the supreme court because we enter a slippery slope when trying to legislate or govern speech. Once you do that, you’re guilty of governing thought as well.

  It’s important to draw the line between though and speech/action.

  Finally, several years ago, Bush passed a law that does give faith based assistance tax money for helping people. So all these churches are entitled to compensation by the govt for helping you. I would look into that and find out if they can deny you based on religion. If they do, i bet they’re in violation.

  Anyways, best of luck!

• Susan
  Aug 29, 2007 at 6:06 pm

  stupidppl, I bet I know who you are now, just under a different name! LOL When I say they butt their noses in, I mean for example abortion issues, they say they have the right to defend their stance on why abortion is wrong, but yet, who are they to say whats right or wrong when it comes to something like abortion when it’s really not their business to make the decisions about. Sorry, this may not be a very good example, but my head is kind of jumbled and I’m tired, so maybe I can think more clearly tomorrow.

  One thing though, you mentioned that the govt gives churches tax breaks for helping people, I see that as a problem because churches already are tax exempt, so why should they get even more credits? Churches spend millions of dollars on adding on to their buildings, whether it’s a fancy new chapel or whatever. The thing is, God states not to build temples unto him, he could careless where you gather for fellowship, it could be under a tree. If the majority of these churches have that kind of money to spend on building a building bigger and grander then another church down the street (it’s like a got to keep up with the Jones’ kind of thing), then why are they allowed tax breaks, their tax exempt, and they claim their not for “profit”? shouldn’t the money their collecting go back into the community? That 5million dollar building they just built could have fed quite a few people here at home and helped quite a few poor people get back on their feet! They say tithe your 10%, shouldn’t they be tithing their 10% or more as well back into their surrounding communites? Also, I don’t think our government, which is “christianity” based as most have put it, then who is our government to question the way other countries for example practice things within their religion? No one bothers this country really until we stick our nose into their countries business, which we say we do in the name of God, but really because we don’t agree with their “religious” ways. Our founding fathers weren’t all just “christians”, there were different faiths involved, but they all agreed together on some “standard” rights that everyone should be allowed to have, no matter what their religion is, so no, our founding fathers weren’t all based in the christianity type of faith! Our founding fathers obviously acknowledged the fact years ago that there were different religious beliefs and thoughts within this country, but today, we seem to forget that, everyone insists that our country was based on christianity alone! I for example, say Great Spirit, or Grandfather Spirit when referring to God, and I thank Mother Earth for supporting our lives, but others would disagree and say that I should say “God”, and that the earth doesn’t do anything really for us but give us a place to live! Our government should not interfere in religious issues unless laws are being broken, etc, I do sometimes agree with others that there needs to be a separation of church and government, because when you have a government based on just one “religion” alone, then really no one is “free” within their religion and therefore are not being represented properly by “the” government. Example of this would be the abortion issues, our president should not be allowed to make a decision based on just his religion alone concerning this issue, wish Bush has referred to many times when the subject of abortion and even gays has been put in front of him (I am by no means stating that homosexuality is a religion LOL), when he makes those kinds of comments and decisions based solely on how he feels his religion is, then he’s not fairly representing all the other faiths out there who may disagree with him, therefore, he’s going against others freedom of religion! At least this is the way I see it. Did that make sense? LOL I could go on, but I’m tired LOL Sorry we seem to have gotten off topic, but it is nice to discuss these issues, after all, if everyone was to learn to accept others for the way they are, maybe that would also make a difference in the amount of abuse that is happening towards our children. And as far as hate speech, well, if they can dish it, they should be able to take it back, I’m not speaking this is a hateful way, I’m just stating the facts the way I see it, after all, I’m not a witch, but back in the days if I had mentioned what I believe, I would have been burned at the stake, and sadly, although I’m not being put on a stake today, I’m still being called a witch and made to feel like an outcast, when really, just because I have a Native American faith, which is what truely was here in this country before the founding fathers showed up, does not mean I wish war and hatred towards others! In fact, I want world peace like everyone else, but it’s not going to happen as long as everyone is too busy disagreeing to be different!

• Susan
  Aug 30, 2007 at 5:39 am

  Maddie Mccann update:

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=478477&in_page_id=1811

  Ok, the parents are talking about going home, but now, there’s rumors that siringes were found in the room, and it’s believed that the mccanns gave their children drugs to sleep with at night..

  “The latest claims allege ‘a syringe with tranquilisers’ was found in the apartment where the little girl went missing.

  Newspaper Correio de Manha suggested Madeleine’s parents, both doctors, could have drugged Madeleine to help her sleep, accidentally giving her an fatal overdose.”

  Then, the mccanns rep came back with this statement:
  “A spokeswoman for the couple said: “I can categorically say the McCanns did not have syringes or sedatives with them on holiday. They do not use sedatives on their children.” They do not use sedatives on their children, but um, yeah, considering their both doctors and have easy access to drugs, were they themselves using sedatives, that statement kind of leaves an open door for speculation! Then the rep went on to say:
  “”This story is absolute nonsense, it is totally untrue. Kate and Gerry are responsible and loving parents. They have said in the past they have never used sedatives on their children.” *scratches head* leaving their children alone everynight for several hours so they could go hang out with friends is not responsible parents! And, this is the first I’ve heard about sedatives, so what was the accusation in the past that they would have commented on sedatives about before? *scratches head again* hhhmmmm……. also kind of makes you wonder if someone did snatch maddie, was she too sedated to realize what was going on and fight? This whole story is getting even more strange!

• Susan
  Aug 30, 2007 at 5:57 am

  I’m sure once the results of the tests come back, etc, and we start hearing more about what really might have happened, suddenly the mccanns will get a “mystery phonecall” from the “person” who took maddie explaining what happened and where she is! Then the mccanns will push to have everything taken out of the media and will be hoping everyone forgets about all of this, again, things seem too fishy here to me!

• Susan
  Aug 30, 2007 at 7:58 am

  stupidppl: Check out this article
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=478755&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments

  Shows some of exactly what I’m saying about christianity and how prejudice christianity really is! This story is talking about a toddler yoga class, and how a church won’t let them use one of their halls for the classes. I’m sure you’ll enjoy this article as well, as it just proves most of what I’ve been saying concerning christianity sticking it’s nose in things and saying what’s right or what’s wrong and not allowing others their same freedom of religion, as well as not giving back to those in their community without strings attached! let me know what you think!

• jaleja
  Aug 30, 2007 at 9:23 am

  Susan,
  Hijacking another thread with the Maddie McCann junk you keep posting. Go find a Maddie McCann thread on which to post your opinions on THAT case, as they don’t have anything to do with this thread. *Sheesh* You’re obsessed.

• Susan
  Aug 30, 2007 at 9:30 am

  jaleja, read what I posted to you on the piercy case, I’m not hijacking anything, there are those on this blog as well as the other blog that are also following the maddie case and have enjoyed getting the updates, because they didn’t know there was an update! if I was hijacking blogs, this would be posted everywhere, I only post a new update when there is one and only on a blog where those I know are following the case are currently at discussing stuff. Like I said in the other blog, if you don’t like it, then skip it, it’s not hurting anything and isn’t any different then other’s posting topic related stuff! Geesh, your the one that seems obsessed with trying to be a “keep on the topic only” monitor!

• Susan
  Aug 30, 2007 at 9:31 am

  sorry, nontopic related stuff is what I meant to say!

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Aug 30, 2007 at 12:08 pm

  Yup it’s me, Ange. I hadda create a user name I think to keep blog trolls out?

  So first I need to correct myself. Churches CAN’T get tax breaks because they don’t pay taxes. They do have access to government funds to help them in their charity. I would think (and hope) that the govt has tied stipulations to that money, like you can’t discriminate in who you’re giving charity to.

  Now, you gave me the impression that you feel a government can’t be based on christian principles and still uphold the separation of church and state. We are a country founded primarly on christian principles. I am pretty sure that all of the founding fathers were christianjust of differing denominations. They wrote the freedom of religion into the constitution and our way of life because of heresy claims and charges being brought by the church of england for ridiculous reasons. They believed, just not exactly as the king did…

  A good example of our current separation ideals is prayer at school functions. It cannot be initiated by schoold (government) staff, nor can it be required by those same people. However, the students can initiate or request such a prayer.

  The president stating that abortion and/or being gay is a sin does not violate that separation until he passes a bill that supports his religious belief. This is where you and I agree. They need to step back and let me worry about my salvation. But that separation can still be there (Much of the time i get the idea Bush thinks he’s invincible or something because of his title. He almost acts like he can do whatever the hell he wants, patriot act is a great example) even though with Bush he has worked hard to eliminate it.

  Other religions and especially other countries are where you really need to look to see how bad it really is or isn’t here.

  Other religions DO interfere with the citizens of their country, sometimes to the death. Look at muslim countries, do you think you could go to most of those practice your native american ways? Christianity? Buddism? Hidu? No, and if you do they kill you for being a heretic or a blasphemer.

  AND christians are by far NOT the worst in insisting that everyone else see it their way. Usually (in my experience anyway) when you meet a christian like that it’s internal, just that person. rarely is it that an entire congregation will look down on you because of your differing beliefs, tho I know it does happen, it’s rare.

  Now look at the jihad that many muslims have wanted to fight. Have you really looked at their religion? It preaches basically believe or die. The real radicals (many of those running countries and mosques) preach that they want to take over the middle east (take over = convert them to their branch of muslim) and then spread it worldwide. Convert or die, Resistance is futile you will be assimilated.

  We as a country tend to claim to get involved in the affairs of others in the name of human rights, i think there is some validity to it, but don’t ever believe that is our only motivation. However, we did not go into vietnam, korea, iraq (either time), afghanistan or any other country that I am aware and defile their religious places of worship, or insist they worship differently, except to leav us the hell alone, we dont’ wanna convert.

  I also didn’t feel your maddie mcann update was off topic. I kinda come here to discuss abuse related issues, i think that case might just be abuse related, don’t know yet…

  Anyways, If i don’t care i’ll skip clicking on the link. I’d rather “argue” with you over more serious topics that make us both think hard and grow a little…

• stupipplshldntbreed
  Aug 30, 2007 at 12:11 pm

  sorry :D one more thought on hate speech.

  Hate speech is hateful speech. When senator so and so stands up and says gays are sinful, immorral, unnatural etc. that is hate speech. Does that mean he’s a hateful, dangerous person? Does that mean he wishes those people ill? No. it is just speech that offends a group of people.

  Hate speech should not be confused with actions. Hate speech shouldn’t be illegal for the reason’s we’ve alrady talked about. We are probably all guilty of hate speeching ;) at one point or another. It is in our genes as humans i think.

• Amanda
  Aug 30, 2007 at 7:16 pm

  If her book targets all the dead-beat parents who have been featured on this website, then I’m all for it! As a mother, I cannot relate to trying to convince fertile, loving people not to have kids, but there are definitely plenty of people out there who should not have kids and maybe the book targets them. If you can be convinced not to have a child by reading a book, then you probably shouldn’t have children anyway because you would probably end up just like these idiots in all these stories!

• nat
  Aug 31, 2007 at 9:12 am

  Susan…Re: your comment about Native Americans…I am 100% Native American and believe me…we have abuse problems I see on all reservations…If we were perfect we wouldn’t have “victims of crimes” services…or CPS-Child Protective Services. Were mostly like other Americans with problems of abuse and alcohol too, it’s probably not advertised and put on parents behaving badly, but it’s out there. I came out of a very abusive relationship about 10 years ago, so in Native American Culture I can’t say or speak for all of us but there are abusive a-holes and unfit parents just like the rest of society. On the other hand, on my “rez” there are plenty of single/married, hard working and educated mothers and fathers that I am very proud of who are raising wonderful children.

• Susan
  Aug 31, 2007 at 10:07 am

  nat, I’m not saying that every race doesn’t have it’s issues, you mentioned alcohol…that is a big issue on alot of reservations (which has been introduced by the “white” man and has been a major issue on alot of reservations, as some reservations are poor and recieve government food, etc, I know of some really poor reservations in Nebraska that the native’s trade their government food rations for alcohol!), and then the alcohol leads to abuse. But as a whole, the majority of native americans I have had experience with do not tolerate abuse against women or children, women and children are held in high regards, most feel that women are sacred as they are an extension of mother earth, and children are taught obedience through respect for elders, etc. I know the pueblo that my native side lives on is a very peaceful place, yes, they have their problems, but as a whole, most of those problems are influenced from those outside the tribe that come onto the pueblo and cause havoc among those who live there. I may have been a little overzealous stating the native american things the way I did, but my point was that christianity has pushed it’s way onto alot of people, and into alot of people’s lives, instead of allowing people to freely be themselves! This article here:
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=478755&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments

  shows a good example of what I was stating about some of the christianity hypocracy…the woman in the story approached a church about using one of their halls (which is rented out and used by many different things like AA, etc.) for a toddler yoga class. The first church told her no, she went to a second church, it also told her no, why? Because they felt that yoga was “unchristian” and that since yoga dealt with meditation and spirituality, that it wasn’t appropriate to be in their buildings. The thing is, to say that yoga for example, should not be done by someone because it’s spiritual in nature….thats a load of crap! Christianity believes in God, therefore, christianity obviously must be spiritual in some way then, God is a “spirit”, the holy spirit is a well…”spirit”. so then doesn’t that make christianity spiritual in some way as well? Also, just because yoda concentrates on some form of meditation, isn’t prayer in the church pretty much the same thing then as meditation? christianity is being a hypocrite in this situation, and going against someone else’s freedom to express themselves, this yoga class was not for religious purposes, it was for toddlers, there are many benefits from practicing yoga (or other similiar form), it doesn’t matter what religion you are on whether you benefit from it’s purpose! Maybe if christianity opened it’s “mind” more to other religions or “religious ways” and learned more about those other ways, then maybe everyone could agree to stop all the bickering over religious issues and there wouldn’t be so much prejudism over others “religion”.

  nat, I think one of the biggest problems though with the majority of native americans is that they still have not gotten over the past! I know quite a few who are still stuck in the past and what happened when the “white man came”. And in turn, that is what is slowly decaying the native american way of life and giving some of the natives a bad rep! If most of those natives would get over the past and work towards a better tomorrow, get back into their native ways and beliefs, and stop always trying to fight a “past war” that can’t be fixed now, then some of the alcohol issues on the reservations might start to cease. And, there are some who refuse to work and feel that the government should take care of them, I disagree with that also! These natives are “fighting” the system the wrong way, and they are actually making it harder for the rest of the native’s who are trying to make positive impacts and changes in society!

• nat
  Aug 31, 2007 at 11:51 am

  Susan,
  I thank you for your comments and insight of what you think of Native Americans. While most of what I see first hand of living on a reservation is that the majority does not live in the past…and also it would be hard to tell my elders to “get over it” while the impact of the Government still has ties from the 1800’s into the modern world now.
  Anyway..not to get off the subject too much with only one cultural view. I pretty much know about my Beliefs and ways of my culture. Of course I know we cherish our women and children, which include boys who grow into men.
  And like a lot of Reservations, people usually don’t “refuse” to work, it sometime comes down to unavailable employment. I’m grateful that our tribe has a lot of employment opportunities.
  Just a fact: not all of us “live off of the government” or expect it to take care of us…And we are very well aware of problems with alcohol as most tribes have programs or steps to help with this disease, most native alcoholics aren’t dealing with the past from the white man coming here…they are dealing with things that happened in their own lives and surroundings and their own problems and abuse growing up. I’ve not heard that comment of “the white man” used as an excuse for being an alcoholic? Believe me I’ve seen this first hand.
  Not trying to be negative but I just wanted to share my point point of view. I enjoy your comments along with Ihavekids2.

• Susan
  Aug 31, 2007 at 12:55 pm

  nat, I think we’re misunderstanding what each is saying lol. I do know some natives though that say the “white man” is who introduced the alcohol into the native way of life, and, I know quite a few others who are still stuck with christopher columbus and his ways of “dealing” with the natives. I agree with their points of views, but sometimes I think they go a little extreme in their actions, I do find it funny though that the government will allow reservations to have casino’s in some states where gambling isn’t even allowed (north carolina is one of those states), and that in turn has caused alot of gambling addictions among people in their tribes. I’m not saying that they are wrong for trying to change wrongs that were done to their ancestors years ago, but I do know quite a few that are extremists! And, I also know quite a few others in some tribes today that are even into powwows for the money aspect of it all, the spirituality part is almost nonexistant at times (I won’t bore you with the whole story of an experience I had). I talk on a regular basis with quite a few elders from various tribes, and most of us agree that alot of the younger generation of natives is letting go of their native ways in favor of the new ways of life. We’ll have to talk again somemore together, I’m really interested in your point of view! Time for the weekend to start, so I’m going to home to hopefully find come tuesday that I have a new job!

• blogomment
  Aug 31, 2007 at 2:13 pm

  “Churches CAN’T get tax breaks because they don’t pay taxes. ”

  Not having to pay taxes IS a tax break.

• el_coco
  Sep 2, 2007 at 8:44 am

  people who want to have children defend their stupid idea with selfish reasons, i think this is not a good moment for having children, noone have a rational defense to this. I don´t want my sons repeat my errors, i purchased this excelent book, and they read it

• nat
  Sep 13, 2007 at 8:16 am

  She’s an ugly bit– anyway..I’m surprised anyone would knock her up

• kerrymenard
  Sep 21, 2007 at 12:28 pm

  el_coco you let your children read this book? 1st of all I am all for not having children if that is your choice, but this lady is trying to make parenthood sound like hell. el_coco (MY OPINION) but maybe letting your children decide on their own would be a better idea. This lady obviously has her own issues with parenting, whatever they might be, but parenting is nothing as she explains. Meaning, maybe you shouldnt try to train your sons not to like children and let them decide that for themselves. Otherwise you might be the cause for another un-wanted child by a deadbeat dad. I don’t mean any offense but all I’m saying is letting your sons read this book, making them believe that parenting is this horrible job, then one unfortunate mishap by them and they get a girl pregnant than bail out on her b/c he is frightened by the responsibility. I am in my mid twenties, and a single mother of a 2 year old whos father does nothing to help me. Most people refer to the age 2 as ” the terrible twos.” Personnally I love it. I would agree with ONLY ONE statement being made in this book, “kids are hard work,” but I was always taught anything worth having is worth fighting for. (HOWEVER IT GOES!) I love waking up every morning to face another rough day of dressing myself and my son in a matter of thirty minutes then returning to work for a long tiresome day then getting off, picking him up rushing home, in the event I don’t have shopping to do or any errands to run, then rushing to cook to have him fed by 7, then giving him a bath getting soaked in the process from him spraying me with a water gun or trying to blow the bubbles on me, then running after him for about 30 minutes before finally getting him in his bed, teaching him his prayers and telling him good night. I love it because at the end of my long day he gives me the tightest hug he is capable of then he tells me “I love you big mommy.”Yes having children in tiresome, frustrating at times, and leaves you with no social life, and if you are a woman like me it is even more of a struggle because I do it alone. I was raised in the “ghetto” and I came out of that. I was the only one in my family to go to college, and now I have a great job, everything I own is paid for by ME. I’m not overflowing with income but I am very rich. Rich in HAPINESS. I am very proud of my success and being able to overcome alot of obstacles most people fall on, but the biggest success I can claim is being a DAMN GOOD MOTHER! I love it! I love watching him grow, I love waiting for what he will say next, and even though I might not admit it then but I love when he nags me for every little thing, cause it lets me know that he needs me, he loves me, and I feel great knowing that I am there for him. So all you women who feel the same as Maier go ahead don’t have children, keep your social life, climb up the ladder of sucess. At the end of your journey don’t be suprised to find that your social life will eventually come to an end, your body will only allow that for so long. Don’t be surprised to find that while you may have all this success and money, you are still empty inside. The love of your children never leave you. It is a hapiness you are able to carry with your for as long as you live. People please don’t take this the wrong way, because I am by no means trying to knock people for not wanting to have kids. Lord knows I would rather someone chose not to have any rather than have them and abuse them. This is MY point, Is success, money, respect, etc… fulfilling? Cause Parenthood very much is!

• Susan
  Sep 21, 2007 at 12:56 pm

  kerry, I couldn’t agree more, I’m a single mother of TWO kids, and just today I was telling someone that the reason I really really wanted this better job I’m going after was because of my kids, not because I’m worried about being president of a company, etc, but because if it wasn’t for my kids, I could work in a job that I wouldn’t need much from because it would only be me to worry about! This woman’s children has the “luxury” of having both parents for her children, both there and doing for the kids. But in reality, there is fast becoming more single parent homes then two parent homes! Why? because the other parent suddenly can’t handle all the responsibility of being a parent, spouse, etc, so they run. I would absolutely LOVE to be able to go out one night, or a weekend even, where I don’t once have to think about my kids or the stresses at home, BUT, the few times I have gotten to go out, I had a curfew (that I set on myself because of my children!), and I found that the whole time I was out, I spent all the time “bragging” about my kids, and those around me did the same! It’s obvious to me that even if I tried to not think about them, they are always present with me, and I wouldn’t trade that for the world! All of these absent parents will one day wake up to find themselves alone, and they will have to deal with that! I rest assured that my little ones will be by my side until my last breath, and that all the love I have showed to them over the years will be returned to me later in life when I need them the most! Money and career success can’t give me that comfort, that’s for sure!

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